COME ON HENRY!!! Gibson gets D minus...

[zigzag]

ZZ....

 

The problem with cutting production - and production people - is that often the ones cut are the more skilled but not necessarily the cheapest or fastest.

 

It also cuts morale.

 

/quote]

 

Where I work, morale has been down since I've been here (8 years), and we are employee owned. The personnel cuts have been with workers who were not happy and let people know it or were not pulling their own weight. The people who are left are happy to have a job in this economy. Management that cuts good people is not good management. Poor management should be held accountable for poor company performance. I know... I live in fantasy land.

[ShredAstaire]

Anyone see this? From the Gibson employee perspective....interesting to read and gives you some insight into the inner workings. Mind you, some of these people are likely disgruntled and prone to hyperbole, but a 1.9 on 61 reviews is nicht so gut....

 

http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Gibson-Guitar-Reviews-E6869.htm

[Hector Arcadius]

Hey John,

 

 

Thanks for the great link man. I think that this deserves to be quoted:

 

''the failure of numerous product lines by CEO who "knows" he is always right despite qualified staff who actually know what they are doing - if you doubt me ask where these products are now or why you see very few of these products in a music store - Oberheim, Opcode, Echoplex, Orange, Red Bear, Goldtone, Dawn, Tobias, Slingerland, Valley Arts, Baldwin, Wurlitzer, Kramer, Steinberger, Maestro, Zeta, digital jukebox, many failed attempts at entertainment venues as well a "lifestyle" products; you wonder why these are brought up? - the only products that do well and survive are the products that would sell even if marketing were stopped-like the Les Paul, SG, etc.; everything else Henry has bought has died a horrible death or sells so little through that the dealers staff probably don't even know how to sell them through.''

[MojoRedFoot]

Do they make him settle' date=' and buy him Fender?

 

 

[/quote']

 

Settle? If you buy a MIA Fender, you are definitely not settling.

 

I know you didn't mean it, Neo.

[DanvillRob]

Man... what an interesting post....

 

I can only say, my three Gibsons all exceed my expectations... all fabulous guitars, and a pleasure to own. I don't much care what the cost is, because, for me, only a Gibson is good enough.

 

I work for a 120 year-old company. Privately owned, and I've been here 29 years. The Quality Department reports to me, although I'm not the QA Manager.

 

We build city transit buses, and so I'm all too familiar with what Toyota is going through. I also worked in manufacturing here and at Peterbilt and Mack for a total of 20 years in heavy-duty vehicle manufacturing, and 22 years in Quality/Service, (DAMN, I'm OLD!). I'm all too familiar with increasing and decreasing production issues. Gibson, like every other company in the US has to deal with evolving regulations, such as what materials can be used in their product. Remember, when a specific glue is regulated out, the replacement glue will cause effects a company can't foresee.

 

As an example, we paint bumpers to match the color of the bus. The EPA demanded a change in the formulation of the compound that our bumpers were made from. This wasn't on our radar screen until the paint started falling off the bumpers. The new compound will not let paint adhere to it like the old stuff did. I can't imagine Gibson isn't going through the same scenarios in their manufacturing process. And as sub-suppliers get squeezed for money, they move their manufacturing process "off-shore" resulting in sub-standard components even though as far as the OEM knows, it's buying the exact same product, it just....well....isn't the same as it's produced in Indonesia where the specifications aren't maintained as well as they were in the US.

 

It's a tough nut to crack, and if a company is to be successful, it HAS to be based on 1. Customer Satisfaction 2. Employee Satisfaction 3. Integrity

 

It's all we've got. The rest will take care of itself.

[charlie brown]

At their price point, you shouldn't have to even think twice, about whether the quality will be there!!!!

You don't, with PRS, you don't with Rickenbacker, or even Fender (USA, anyway). Beyond a quick

set up, to personal preferences, I've NEVER had an issue, with any guitar, by those companies.

Even my "Chinese" made, Epiphone P-93LE Riviera was "spot on," right out of the box. I simply lowered

the action a bit (personal preference), and didn't even have to adjust the truss rod, at all. The

Fret work was suppurb, compared to most Gibson's I've seen, lately.

 

So...WHY do you have to pay Gibson's "Custom Shop" prices (and even that, isn't a guarantee) for

quality that should be a "given," even in the nomal production line? #$%^&*()!!!

 

CB

[cwness]

Gibson has some serious problems but they don't want to admit it. I ask

you how many over forums crash all the time. This the only one I am a part

of the you have to wonder when you click on the bookmark is it going to open?

Duane you have played guitar for years so I would hope that the guitars you

buy would all be A+'s but a beginners going in that doesn't know what to look

for are the ones that are getting stuck because they are under the belief they

are getting the best. Little do they know and that's a shame. Question to

Duane why would you by anything that's not A+ I surely wouldn't waste my

money. It had better be A+ or my money stay's in my pocket.

 

CW

[duane v]

Gibson has some serious problems but they don't want to admit it. I ask

you how many over forums crash all the time. This the only one I am a part

of the you have to wonder when you click on the bookmark is it going to open?

Duane you have played guitar for years so I would hope that the guitars you

buy would all be A+'s but a beginners going in that doesn't know what to look

for are the ones that are getting stuck because they are under the belief they

are getting the best. Little do they know and that's a shame. Question to

Duane why would you by anything that's not A+ I surely wouldn't waste my

money. It had better be A+ or my money stay's in my pocket.

 

CW

 

I don't judge any guitar manufacturer by it's official chat forum' date=' but if that's one of the criteria you use, whatever floats your beanie[biggrin']

 

Very seldom does a non-boutique guitar get a A rating from me, but occasionally there are some that hit home with me immediately.....

 

I look for potential on guitars under $1000, and the SG faded and the JLP fell right into that category where all they would need is a little love from my Luthier to become A+ guitars by my standards

[NeoConMan]

The personnel cuts have been with workers who were not happy and let people know it or were not pulling their own weight. The people who are left are happy to have a job in this economy.

Management that cuts good people is not good management.

Poor management should be held accountable for poor company performance.

Yep.

This goes back to what I posted early on.

Go out to the production floor and see where the problems are.

 

Does the guy working that station really want to screw up every guitar he touches? Then fire him.

My guess is the problem is something beyond his control' date=' so [b']don't[/b] fire him - give him what he needs to do it right.

Listen to the people who may not speak the loudest, but with the most gravity.

Listen to the guys who actually know what's going on between the sawmill and setting action/intonation.

 

 

 

One other thing - non union labor saves Gibson lotsa money and hassles. Can you say Kalamazoo?

You can pay people less, and they will stay on the job, if you empower them to do their job right.

When they feel they have some control over their own destiny, satisfaction/morale is part of the paycheck.

 

If you fxck with your employees all the time and jerk them around, it doesn't matter how much you pay them.

They will seek their retribution, even subconsciously, by overlooking details and being enslaved by attitudes.

Their job performance will suffer when their workdays are consumed by contempt for their bosses.

[NeoConMan]

Settle? If you buy a MIA Fender' date=' you are definitely not settling.[/quote']

Bolt-on necks, alder bodies, no binding, cheap plastic pickguard instead of carved flame Maple on top....

They are in different market segments.

 

The point I was making is that anybody who has his heart set on a new LP Custom won't settle for a Strat.

I love 'em, got several Fenders myself.

Damned good value for the money though - and a gloss finish to boot.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, and Charlie Brown mentioned Rick and PRS;

I only have one of each, and they're incredible.

Not cheap by any means, but for the money nobody can touch 'em.

Let's just say they didn't have 5-digit list prices...

 

[DanvillRob]

Oh' date=' and Charlie Brown mentioned Rick and PRS;

I only have one of each, and they're incredible.

Not cheap by any means, but for the money nobody can touch 'em.

Let's just say they didn't have 5-digit list prices...

 

[img']http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2042/2207680682_7a6e6c2163.jpg[/img]

 

Stunning guitars...both of them....

[Hall]

At their price point' date=' you shouldn't have to even think twice, about whether the quality will be there!!!!

You don't, with PRS, you don't with Rickenbacker, or even Fender (USA, anyway). Beyond a quick

set up, to personal preferences, I've NEVER had an issue, with any guitar, by those companies.

Even my "Chinese" made, Epiphone P-93LE Riviera was "spot on," right out of the box. I simply lowered

the action a bit (personal preference), and didn't even have to adjust the truss rod, at all. The

Fret work was suppurb, compared to most Gibson's I've seen, lately.

 

So...WHY do you have to pay Gibson's "Custom Shop" prices (and even that, isn't a guarantee) for

quality that should be a "given," even in the nomal production line? #$%^&*()!!!

 

CB[/quote']

 

agreed

 

 

...Steve W

[milod]

I think Rob hit an interesting point that may be part of the wood thing.

 

I think Gibson may have more difficulty than smaller companies in getting sufficient consistent wood sources, not to mention other materials. In China I'm guessing that they have a somewhat easier time with both given the differences in what governmental oversight is likely to mean.

 

Back in the '60s I'll admit I liked the Rick I was playing, but it always seemed ... bulky. don't ask why. I dunno. The Gibson seemed lighter as though it wanted to move itself rather than to be moved.

 

But that's my bod and how guitars fit it. A design thing as well as a construction thing.

 

Seriously, this isn't a defense or attack on Gibson, but I think Rob's point on materials sources requires some consideration too. And yeah, I think even an SG is a whole different thing than a Strat in terms of quality. The bolt-on Epi solids would be something I'd consider a valid comparison with the Mexi-Fenders. And hey, I'd love an Epi Dot. <grin>

 

One problem I have is being too critical of a company that's putting out as many products - guitars in the case of Gibson - with as generally high a standard of quality even if I strongly disagree with some corporate policies and have seen some lemons. Rob's point about some changes in suppliers' materials makes one wonder what may have been hitting Gibson lately and whether Mexican Fenders may not have some other regulatory advantages we don't know about.

 

So... I return to my "PR" rant. <grin> Hey Rob, need a PR guy there? Probably not since you're doing rather well at it!

 

m

[NeoConMan]

Yeah, Milo, but the Mexi-Strats share many parts with the MIA stuff.

A little closer to the flagship line than the Chinese Epiphones would be.

 

And yes, my Rick 381 takes some getting used to with the odd shape and straight-on neck angle.

I can always tell by the look on their faces that many people have never played one when they try mine...

 

[DanvillRob]

 

So... I return to my "PR" rant. <grin> Hey Rob' date=' need a PR guy there? Probably not since you're doing rather well at it!

 

m[/quote']

 

HA! Actually I'm the "Anti-PR" guy here. I'm famous, (Infamous?), throughout this industry for being a hard-nosed SOB. I think of myself as fair, and bending over backwards for our customers, and I KNOW I'm blessed with the best employees in this industry ... but I will also point out to our customers when they haven't taken proper care of their vehicles, (which is pretty common in government-run transit agencies in these tough times).

[brundaddy]

I think the problem is that Gibson has evolved into a huge corporation. The CEO culture is a crock that cultivates a fantasyland where 'leaders' become hopelessly out of touch with what's good for the company -- this corporate executive culture also creates a bogus nobility among the workforce who feel entitled to milk the cash cow, and have little/no respect for the product and its creation ... or its CREATORS on the shop floor.

 

A byproduct of the corporate fantasyland is the ludicrously inflated retail prices. For me, that is why I will never buy another new Gibson. And don't get me started on the MSRP vs. 'street' price scam...

[ShredAstaire]

Companies want growth....its hard to grow when you make the same stuff.... I can see why they wanna try to make some new stuff but the new stuff they're making is not of interest to the masses. So how do you grow your business?

 

I think increasing customer Loyalty and Customer Delight (Satisfaction is so 90's) will help stay level but you do need something big to encourage growth. My company is going through similar pains...growing too fast and adding too much and yes it does hurt the employees and makes it harder to do good work. I think Neo nailed it here....

 

Hank and the boys need to be more strategic....seems many times now that they are throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks....this is not good for business hehehe...

[NeoConMan]

get me .........the generals chicken...........mmm...........

Oh' date=' I almost forgot - thanks Blackie!

Had Mongolian BBQ last night.

Drove into town and met Mrs. Neo for dinner at a place recommended by her sister.

 

It ain't Texas BBQ, but it was decent.

 

[ksdaddy]

If I were running Gibson things would be different. But I'm old-school, resistent to change, I'm not a businessman and I don't want to rule the world.

 

Gibson would likely go down in flames with me at the helm but our heads would be held high the whole trip down.

[NeoConMan]

If I were running Gibson things would be different.

But I'm old-school' date=' resistent to change, I'm not a businessman and I don't want to rule the world.

Gibson would likely go down in flames with me at the helm but our heads would be held high the whole trip down.[/quote']

And let me guess - you'd be making first-rate guitars 100% of the time until they shut off the electricity, eh?

Something to be said for integrity - it's usually not too far removed from true craftsmanship.

 

KS, somebody would come along and pump the cash into such a business to refloat it.

Put out the flames and keep the key people.

Get back to the basics of the guitar business - build 'em right, price 'em right, and they will come.

 

THAT is the only sustainable business model.

History has proven this again and again and again and again.....

 

 

Now, if you've alienated your customer base and you're actually able to compete only with cheap-*** imports,

then where is your profit? There won't be one. Make GOOD guitars, make them right, and price them where they

will sell.

 

Everybody wants to b!tch about Gibson's prices.

Please notice one thing, and I want EVERYBODY to think about it.

 

I DO NOT COMPLAIN ABOUT GIBSON'S PRICES.

 

What I complain about is the breach of contract.

A customer agrees to pay your price, so you now have the responsibility to see that he gets what he paid for.

That's Gibson's problem in a nutshell.

 

People buy $15,000 Les Pauls if they have Jimmy Page's name on them.

Hell, if I could clear that sort of profit and rub elbows with JP, I'd do it too.

I don't blame Gibson a bit.

 

Gibson has to make a profit or the lights get turned off, doors locked, and everybody is sent home.

They can make a FAT profit if the market will bear it.

I vote with my wallet, and I purchase what I perceive to be an adequately good value.

I LOVE Jimmy Page, probably my favorite player, but I ain't spending that sort of money.

I have Les Pauls, a double neck, an old Danelectro, and used to have a Martin acoustic - all of which he plays.

None of them are overpriced signature models.

 

It's my choice.

 

I don't like some of the Gibson prices, I wish I could afford more guitars, but I realize they are in BUSINESS.

When people stop buying, they won't be.

[cwness]

Neo you forgot one thing. Get the Gibson brand back in the Mom and Pop

stores where people now what they are talking about. Also let them buy

what they need not the forced minimum required now.

 

CW

[charlie brown]

Neo...True. BUT...I (for one) only ***** about Gibson prices, for two reasons.

ONE (most importantly, for me) is the utter lack of quality, associated with continued

raising of the prices, and not maintaining quality, with some exception in the CS versions.

And, TWO...this 6-month to yearly increase, at percentages that just don't wash. NO one else,

does this. There are price increases, as needed and justified, in other guitar manufacturers...

but, never so often, and at such percentages.

Case in point, my "Lucille" has more than doubled, in selling price, in 4 years. MOST of that increase,

came in the last 2 years. Now, that's "good" if I ever want to resell it (unlikely), but...it simply reflects

unrealistic (IMHO) semi-annual, or annual price increases. Another thing, I notice, was that the

(normal production) '61 SG has doubled, or more, in the last 3 years, as well. Those are but 2 examples.

I'm sure you, or others, have similar obsevations, that you could share, as well? SOME increase, due to

material, labor, and transportation costs, are (always) to be expected. My gripe, (as well as the quality

issue) is with the freqeuncy, and the percentages, that those price raises occur.

 

CB

[DanvillRob]

Neo you forgot one thing. Get the Gibson brand back in the Mom and Pop

stores where people now what they are talking about. Also let them buy

what they need not the forced minimum required now.

 

CW

 

 

Don't forget "market forces". If something gets too expensive, (i.e. not worth the asking price), people simply won't buy it.... then in order to continue to sell it, the price will come down. When it reaches a level where EVERYONE will pay that price, the price will go up again 'til it again hits a level where people won't pay.

 

The same principle works if you need to sell 100,000 guitars a year.... if they're priced too high, they won't sell and factory workers will be laid off. Once the price is lowered to a level where too many people want 'em, delivery will be backed-up necessitating a raise in prices. The "happy medium" is never set forever...it's a constant ebb & flow.

[duane v]

Neo you forgot one thing. Get the Gibson brand back in the Mom and Pop

stores where people now what they are talking about. Also let them buy

what they need not the forced minimum required now.

 

CW

 

Of all the suggestions within this thread' date=' IMO this one is by far the best one[cool']

[DanvillRob]

Of all the suggestions within this thread' date=' IMO this one is by far the best one[cool']

 

What do you want to bet that some of the "big box" stores have contract language making them exclusive in certain areas to sell Gibsons.