krock Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Did you really sell that Gary Moore Signature? Is the Gary Moore sig the BFG? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mayer_shabetay Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I agree with you 100%!!!! When I got my last Gibson (Alex Lifeson LP), I took it to the guy that calibrates all my guitars and he asked me if I was buying the Chinese Gibsons because the last two he got from me, he noticed a serious drop on the quality and finish. So I do agree that quality standards are slipping at Gibson´s. With so many models coming out almost weekly, I think they´re giving more importance to quentity than quality. Its a real shame for this to happen. [cursing] Last sunday i went to my local guitar center (yes yes i know OMG a GC), i talked around with the guys and then the manger was telling me of the new MM's they just got in stock. They didnt put them on the floor yet because of strange problems with wiring and the pickguards being all ****ed. So i asked if i could see them, they had a blue MM explorer with a pickguard full of scratches, like a cat was on top of it and went nuts. He then showed me the blue SG which had wiring problems with the pickup selector and the tone knob not working. These guitars are brand new, made maybe a month or two ago. What the ****? Now for story number two. I hit a music store thats a Gibson dealer and they had these brand new Les Paul studio's. The guy told me he just put them on the floor that morning, so i start playing them and checking them out. The first Les Paul had cracks near the neck meeting the body and one of the tuning keys were not straight. The thirdi les paul has wiring problems, sometimes it would go to the neck pup, you just put it in the middle selection. The 2nd les paul sounded very dull and it felt like the frets werent put right. This was about a month ago. I love Gibson guitars but now im slowly staying away from them, my loyalty is dying to them. Its like they dont care anymore and just ship out guitars without looking at them once. I'm sure you have all seen the complaints by everyone on this forum and other forums about new guitars from Gibby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstMeasure Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 But this isnt a recent thing, this has been going on for months...maybe even a year or two. I just kindly ignored but now i'm starting to see what everyone means. You mean, this has been going on for the last 10 years. About six years ago I was in a GC, tried a J-45 that was the sweetest acoustic I ever tried, the J-45 hanging next to it wasn't. In fact the Epiphone Elitist that hung right below it was much nicer than one J-45, but not nicer than the other J-45. A buddy of mine that works at the same store brought down a Les Paul Standard that just came in the store. Sounded Great Played Great, Drips In The Finish, $2000?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Plains Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 dem00n, I realize you're only a teenager but two words - Gibson Custom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 dem00n, I realize you're only a teenager but two words - Gibson Custom. Yeah, unfortunately, R9 may be right, here. The "Custom Shop" guitars seem to be more in line/on point, with Gibson's original "better" quality and spec's, too. The CS model SG's are a good example (save the VOS "red" finishes)...they're beveled "right," whereas the Gibson USA versions, are pathetic, on the beveling, especially between the horn points, and the neck...with the exception of the '61 RI. QC "seems" to be a bit higher, too, with CS guitars...though, not perfect. But, it does seem, to me, anyway... that if you want "real Gibson old style quality," you have to go CS, and pay out the nose, for it! Frankly, IMHO...the CS guitars are, what Gibson USA SHOULD BE, normally! The Custom Shop, should be just that! Meant for Special orders, One of a kind, and/or very limited editions "collector's models!" Again, and as always...IMHO. CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damian Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 According to member "Guitarist", all Les Pauls have EXACTLY the SAME quality control flaws and finish errors.... As such, according to him, you are all wrong....Thread over....... :unsure: ...... Actually, some Fender workers in the "Relicing" dept were laid off and now work in Gibby Q.C. :blink: .... Maybe Henry's been watching too many old Chuck Norlin movies...... ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Just a general statement A truly flawless instrument is a rarity especially when there is hand craftsmanship involved. In order to achieve consistency and quantity you have to move more towards mechanical and robotic methods of production. Once this happens you end up with a sterile clone. It's a catch 22 in a way. The problem with automated production is that if there is an issue be it mechanical or the person who programed the CNC etc... is you can quickly end up with a bunch of fooked up guitars. Most companies will do whatever they can to slip them into the market ( if they are not too bad) so they don't take a big loss. So you mix them in with some decent ones take a hit on the " Your quality is going to "shite" for a while but they all eventually get sold... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstMeasure Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Just a general statement A truly flawless instrument is a rarity especially when there is hand craftsmanship involved. In order to achieve consistency and quantity you have to move more towards mechanical and robotic methods of production. Once this happens you end up with a sterile clone. It's a catch 22 in a way. The problem with automated production is that if there is an issue be it mechanical or the person who programed the CNC etc... is you can quickly end up with a bunch of fooked up guitars. Most companies will do whatever they can to slip them into the market ( if they are not too bad) so they don't take a big loss. So you mix them in with some decent ones take a hit on the " Your quality is going to "shite" for a while but they all eventually get sold... I don't believe that at all. Quality Control and Consistency are well within the abilities of the human creature. Tiffany managed pretty well without machines. Fender and Gibson had better quality control before the Plek Machine. In the 70's you could rely on a Magnaxox TV because Magnavox had consistent quality. Amp builders were pumping out consistent hand wired quality before printed circuit boards made things easier. I'm sorry, but I don't believe humans are less capable than machines at Quality control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 . Just judging from the comments on this thread, most from members who aren't grinding an axe on a problem/issue with a new purchase, and some from members who've been playing/buying Gibsons for decades, there's definitely perceived problem with Gibson's QC. Statements about nothing is flawless, or nitpicking complainers isn't going to change the perception. Gibson USA is going to have to cleanup to change it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Well, some anomalies, are to be expected. But, to me, too many things are down to sloppy QC..."small issues," or not. I don't expect "perfect," but I do expect them to be as good as can be done, all things considered, before allowing them out of the factory, or on the sales floor. Especially at those prices! The dealers too, need to be diligent, in their own inspections, and either fix, or send back, any that don't measure up. "Only A Gibson is Good Enough," shouldn't mean (just barely) "good enough." In all fairness, I personally, have been pretty fortunate, with my Gibson's. Most, have been exceptional, including my (2) "Norlin Era," LP's ('76 Deluxe & '80 Custom) A couple, more recent ones though, needed some minor work, either at the dealer, or some better fret work, later. Ironically, ALL (4) of my Epiphones had better frets, and fret work, out of the box. So...??? But, I guess as long as we keep putting up with/paying for, lackluster QC, and the reason/excuse, that "it's within their acceptable parameters," nothing much, is going to change. CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I don't believe that at all. Quality Control and Consistency are well within the abilities of the human creature. Tiffany managed pretty well without machines. Fender and Gibson had better quality control before the Plek Machine. In the 70's you could rely on a Magnaxox TV because Magnavox had consistent quality. Amp builders were pumping out consistent hand wired quality before printed circuit boards made things easier. I'm sorry, but I don't believe humans are less capable than machines at Quality control. I think you misunderstood what I was saying. First of all I said a truly "Flawless" guitar. Concerning quality and consistency I meant in mass production ( the quality can be consistently good, mediocre or poor). Lastly my point was it is the inconsistency in hand built instruments that give them character and life I wasn't inferring that humans are incapable of Quality control. Finally you can believe what you would like. I'm just a stupid guy on a forum. I really don't know much about the subject of building guitars and amps or how Guitar manufacturing and Quality control is handled. Just ask anyone here. I'm really a complete idiot and I apologize for spreading my ignorance. Regards, Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenced Fred Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I think you misunderstood what I was saying. First of all I said a truly "Flawless" guitar. Concerning quality and consistency I meant in mass production ( the quality can be consistently good, mediocre or poor). Lastly my point was it is the inconsistency in hand built instruments that give them character and life I wasn't inferring that humans are incapable of Quality control. Finally you can believe what you would like. I'm just a stupid guy on a forum. I really don't know much about the subject of building guitars and amps or how Guitar manufacturing and Quality control is handled. Just ask anyone here. I'm really a complete idiot and I apologize for spreading my ignorance. Regards, Andy Same here, but I don't think you're stupid at all. Myself on the other hand... Anyways, I think my complaint isn't little finish flaws, or anything like that. I'm talking about stuff that I posted earlier and dem00n mentioned, stuff like pickguards completely trashed, gouges in the finish, etc. That's just a lack of quality control. When you are going to spend 2 grand on a guitar, it should be high quality and free from stupid stuff like that. That's just sheer laziness/incompetence/disregard for your customer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artie Owl Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Andy was just being Nice, he knows the score. In regards to your OP dem00n, you SHOULD question everything. It's something a lot of the younger generation doesn't do anymore, and we're all guilty of it at some point or another. In regards to QC, I haven't had enough sit down time with enough different Gibbys to toss a lot of cents into the pot here. I can say that my SG Standard, made in January of 2010, was of superior quality and I couldn't be happier with her. That being said you have to decide how strong your brand loyalty is. If you truly love something then you take the good times with the bad times and pick and choose when it's time to buy and when to wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 It cracks me up how trouble just seems to follow ANDY-even when he ain't trying to stir ****, he stirs ****. "I was walking down the street, minding my own business, when..." Not that it matters, but the only people I can see that SHOULD have a QC issue with anything are those trying to SELL a guitar. (dealers, distributes, etc.). If a guitar is up to your standard, you buy it if you want. If you have to buy online and it doesn't cut it, you send it back. If they all suck, send them all back. These days, any place I know that you can buy Gibson has a return policy, in person or online. As well as a pretty good warranty. If there is any problem with QC, I would think the dealers that are stuck with guitars they can't sell, or a company spending money fixing them, or an online dealer shipping guitars back and forth as the ones that should have an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The RandyMan Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Being an active participant in the manufacturing industry, I've noticed that there is a trend toward "lean" manufacturing. This involves streamlining production methods by doing more with less people. There is more automation to effect greater consistency of product, but there is also cost-cutting to improve the profit margin. To improve profits, reduce cost of manufacture without reducing retail prices of the product. One major cost-cutting initiative is to standardize production methods with instructions on how to perform manufacturing and assembly operations in such a way that less-skilled (and lower paid) labor can be utilized where skilled craftsmen were once employed. There is also the issue of "lead time" (the amount of time it takes to make a product from the time it is ordered to the time it is finished and shipped to the consumer). Shorter lead times means being able to produce and sell more product in less time, thereby increasing the bottom line over a set period of time. Another issue I have to wonder about is the number of skilled tradespeople who have worked for a company like Gibson over a number of years and have perfected their knowledge and skills of their trade together and have then reached retirement age, where the company may lose a number of talented craftsmen in a short period of time and have then had to replace them with "greenhorns." The learning curve of some of the people that perform certain key operations in the making of an instrument of quality must be great, to say the least. Sorry for the long, dry dissertation. But maybe Gibson's going through the same adjustments that a lot of companies are going through now. Moving from a pride-fueled, craft-based production environment to a modern large-volume, demand-driven manufacturing machine. If you look at why most people seek "vintage" (technological advances notwithstanding), it is most times because of the quality of the older product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The RandyMan Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 As a side note, I got a 2010 Les Paul Studio Fireburst (on sale at the time), and the quality was pretty top-notch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Must be due to that imported wood from India that then gets shipped to China. I tend to agree with Andy that there is no such thing as a flawless guitar. But some companies do it better than others. PRS and Taylor are two that come to mind. So what are they doing better than Gibson? I don't have an answer and maybe that's a rhetorical question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrosurfer1959 Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 It's very true that there is no flawless guitar or anything else hand made that's a given. But that's also not what's being complained about here, Gibson has gotten careless and is more concerned with getting them out rather than getting them right. This started several years ago and if anything it's getting worse. I really noticed it on the 50's and 60's Tribute Studio with the dual P-90's. The fans and even many of the people on this forum went crazy for those guitars because they were "affordable" they might have been affordable but they were also very poorly put together and finished. I guess you could argue that they were a low cost model but that is still is not an excuse for not caring. I went through five (5) of the Tribute Studios really trying to get one that was even worth keeping before I just gave up. I think it all started with the BFG when Gibson realized that it could sell anything and call it a feature and face it everybody wants low cost Gibson's so that's what they focus on now. The Custom Shop line still makes some beautiful guitars with great sound and some of the reissues are truly amazing, but to buy anything other than a CS well I can't see it happening anymore for me unless something really changes. What's truly sad is it can be done PRS, Hamer and hell even Carvin and many others can do it and almost every guitar they build looks and sounds good, but Gibson just can't say that anymore. At least you don't have to worry about Guitar Center damaging the guitars anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4Hayden Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Last sunday i went to my local guitar center (yes yes i know OMG a GC), i talked around with the guys and then the manger was telling me of the new MM's they just got in stock. They didnt put them on the floor yet because of strange problems with wiring and the pickguards being all ****ed. So i asked if i could see them, they had a blue MM explorer with a pickguard full of scratches, like a cat was on top of it and went nuts. He then showed me the blue SG which had wiring problems with the pickup selector and the tone knob not working. These guitars are brand new, made maybe a month or two ago. What the ****? Now for story number two. I hit a music store thats a Gibson dealer and they had these brand new Les Paul studio's. The guy told me he just put them on the floor that morning, so i start playing them and checking them out. The first Les Paul had cracks near the neck meeting the body and one of the tuning keys were not straight. The thirdi les paul has wiring problems, sometimes it would go to the neck pup, you just put it in the middle selection. The 2nd les paul sounded very dull and it felt like the frets werent put right. This was about a month ago. I love Gibson guitars but now im slowly staying away from them, my loyalty is dying to them. Its like they dont care anymore and just ship out guitars without looking at them once. I'm sure you have all seen the complaints by everyone on this forum and other forums about new guitars from Gibby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4Hayden Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 I've had Fender & Gibson guitars for years but it seem Colling's & Taylor guitar quality is much better in today's market. I just bought this one and have another one the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GibSinCity Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 They keep makin' them, good and bad, and people keep buyin' them both ways. As long as that happens, it's business as usual at Gibson. Periods where quality control is an issue will come and go, so if something new doesn't meet your standards, don't buy it. Buy another brand for now, or buy a quality used instrument. Ultimately it's up to the consumer to decide how to spend hard-earned money. That's the only voice you have. That being said, I understand the need to feel that if you're paying for something new, you feel it should be "New". Now some QC issues ARE unacceptable and that's totally determined by the individual, but I just wonder how many of these "Quality Control" issues actually affect the function, playability and SOUND of the instrument. INSTRUMENT. For making MUSIC. Music that you HEAR, not that you SEE. Now I like a good looking, well-made guitar as much as the next player, but really, if you were blind, and tone and playability (remember them?) were key, how many flaws would you find with a guitar when you're concentrating on how the guitar SOUNDS and plays? Don't like it, move on to the next one until you find "It". It should be about weather the instrument spoke to you, and felt right in your hands, regardless of what minor flaws it might have. I'd bet that most players who really know a good guitar when they hear it, wouldn't care one about a minor issue with a new guitar as long it didn't affect the tone, function, playability or the warranty. Would you rather have a great sounding tone-monster of a used guitar with some nicks and scratches, or an average sounding guitar that's "flawless"? So what's the difference when it's "New"? Obviously, if there's a real issue it's a deal breaker, but if it's minor and it feels right, go for it. If it bothers you that much, don't buy it. Sometimes "New" doesn't mean perfect, especially with a hand made non-Custom Shop instrument. Now I understand that some people have to buy guitars sight-unseen and have to return it, or have had warranty issues arise after having the guitar for a while, and that's a different story. But if your at a brick and mortar store, it's up to you to leave with something you are satisfied with. How picky you are, and about what is up to you. Again, I don't mean to upset anyone. If you feel something is not right with your guitar, you have every right to have that situation corrected. I just think sometimes we can be a little picky when it comes to issues that have nothing to do with how the guitar makes music. Remember, these things were meant to be PLAYED. I also think that a lot of great music has been recorded and performed on guitars that were way less than perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damian Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 If I WERE blind, I wouldn't be concerned about quality control......But I'm NOT blind...... If I were RICH, I wouldn't be concerned about quality control......But I'm NOT rich.......... Poor quality control shows a complete disregard for the product that one makes, regardless of what that product is, and a lack of self respect, for all, including the customer......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 I agree, it goes in cycles, with Gibson. I personally, will never buy something I don't just "love!" Gibson's, or otherwise. We seem to hear about the less than desirable, that way, too. Sometimes, there's very little discussion, about it, and other times, it "seems" like, every other person, has a complaint, about their QC. So...??? CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstMeasure Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 If expecting Gibson to be as consistent with it's quality as Martin or Taylor makes me an unreasonable perfectionist, I wear that charge as a badge of honor. I just don't think expecting the Cadillac of Guitars to look as nice as they sound is unreasonable. (btw, sound is one of the quality's they let slip on their acoustics, but I'm just an unreasonable consumer, spoiled by the easy times I grew up in). Did I mention I'm a Luddite, stuck in the blissful past of wooden guitars, analog signal paths and music with hooks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This_Dying_Soul Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 I tend to go for playability and sound over appearances... but when you're paying the kind of money for a guitar that Gibson charges, it should not have obvious flaws that can be spotted a mile away or cause the sound and feel to be compromised. Ultimately it comes down to spotting the flaws when you are buying... in the case of online purchases, inspect the guitar closely as soon as you get it and not just for superficial flaws but for things affecting sound and feel. Personally, if I came across something like a drip in the finish or some other flaw that was just in the appearance, and I really liked the sound and feel, I would try to exploit this as a means to getting that awesome sounding and playing guitar for a lower price. \:D/ It might be harder to sell later but if you aren't asking the same price as people are asking for guitars in better condition than you shouldn't have a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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