Could someone justify this for me?

[Gumby-137]

This whole post is what, frankly, drives me crazy about Gibson, and why I have a love/hate relationship with them.

 

Everything you say here is true, but inevitably leads me to believe that buying a Traditional essentially means buying a second-rate product. And I just can't justify spending that kind of money for something that is second-string, especially when I could buy a PRS - each of which is essentially a custom-made instrument - for the price of a Traditional.

 

Buying something from the Custom shop may be worth it, but when it comes to simple value for the money - removing the emotional component - Gibson is losing my faith.

 

Read the new premier guitar the article on Heritage is great!

[LarryUK]

Read the new premier guitar the article on Heritage is great!

I'll be reading that. I also rate Hamer.

[overtherainbo]

Hello, Fellow Babies,

Could be I was addressing too many issues.... And I'll have to admit, if a 6 or $700 guitar is the new, crap end of the market, that is, if a mere $600 bucks can't buy a decent guitar, then guitarists are left with no alternative than than to buy the most expensive guitars.

 

But don't rile me boys, 'cause typing these responses is no trifling matter -- my old keyboard died, and I using a substitute with black keys; and I can't see what I'm writing till I read it. This is tuff, but I have the sand to do it... Maybe quality really is an issue... and... It just might be that I have failed to appreciate that new guitars aren't of the quality they were in the past.

 

But, Riffster, much as I like Gretsch, you're describing a broken, used guitar -- bad electrics throughout, and a collapsed bridge (not sure what this means - broken mounting studs, missing screws for adjusting logs, the body of the bridge bent, disintegration of the logs themselves...) It sounds like the guitar must have suffered a serious, heavy blow to bridge. Not normal wear.

 

At this point, I sense a crowd gathered 'round.... " Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!...."

 

And if you're married to the Gibson sound, you probably will not like Gretsch sound. Sound is totally subjective, so i don't really grock why you don't approve of the electrics. Has some previous owner messed around with them, or is this original factory? On the issue of soft frets, the only guitar I have where this is remotely a question is my oldest Fender, the Jazzmaster, with a neck built in... wait for it... 1960 --- still going strong, never re-fretted. I've never had to re-fret a single guitar. If this is really a wide-spread issue, it may be that the guitar company in question is having a management problem and they have let their quality control slide. And some of my guitars have plastic nuts (can't believe the editors will let 'plastic nuts' pass) and I've never experienced any problems.

 

** It never occurred to me to compare a used, badly damaged guitar with a new, more expensive alternative **

 

Again sound is subjective. If you're looking for a Gretsch to sound like a Gibson, I'm sure you'll be disappointed, even with unaltered factory electrics. If you rebuilt the electronics, using your favorite pickups and pots, I'm sure you can get the sound you prefer. And here we can have arguments about who makes the best pickups or pots ! But if the electronics were factory installed, I remain a bit skeptical, and we seem to be at loggerheads here.

 

I'm not really sure if my next remark will clarify anything but my own attitude. I worked for Harley chop shops and at Honda motorcycle dealerships. Both incredible products, and I have ridden and loved Harley, BSA Tiger, and Honda. But a motorcycle is a motorcycle. You can pay twenty grand or a few thousand. I'm old enough that I've ridden, worked with, and had a few friends among the One Per-centers... So I know the difference between old school bikers and the bankers and accountants who ride Harleys now. I remember joining a bunch of people I took to bikers outside a bar one night. I stopped by because there was a bunch of factory-choppers sitting out front. I know, I know, I'm old school, I built and painted my chopper, but I'm tolerant.... A while after joining the conversation, I started noticing that the conversation was conspicuously not about any of the usual subjects... God Help Us, the subject was CDs and Interest rates !! !!

 

When I worked with Honda, I was overwhelmed with the quality of the product, quality control, engineering, etc. Incredible product line, but I had been a 750 4 (original owner, 750 K1) fan for years before I started at the dealership. One thing that completely baffled me though. Along with Honda, they sold a couple of lower cost scooters ( name with held) ; and I never really liked the marketing strategy employed by the dealership. Evidently they sold the really inexpensive scooters to the buyers that just wouldn't pay for Honda in an effort to get the money of every possible customer. But I was completely out of touch with the makers of the cheap scooters.... Basically they had built a pretty good bike, but every so often they would use a factory part that was clearly wrong for the job. I mean, soft metal slugs for hub assembly key-ways. Lead is some times used as a liner because it is soft and has a lubricating action, but, good grief, the factory installed it in places where the part would predictably fail. It seemed that it was a deliberate instance of planned obsolescence. Have our American guitar manufacturers sunk to this? I always thought guitar people were different, that we respected craft, skills, wood, and like, that...

 

Chevy vs. Ford, Honda vs. Harley, Gibson vs. Fender, the one thing they all have in common is here are no greater hardheads. Well, except that old school Harley doesn't deal well with disagreements.

 

Okay, Riffster, so maybe I missed the memo where guitar manufacturers decided that their lower end models will be built to such poor tolerances that customers will be herded to the top of the market.

 

But when I buy a used guitar, I expect to fix it first, and I never expect it to sound just like a different guitar, like an LP. I am happy to get the get the best performance and sound the guitar is capable of producing. My Fenders sound like Fender. My Gibson Sg cannot, does not sound like a Fender; it will not produce a tone comparable to a Fender Strat or Jazzmaster using the bridge pickup. So what? Each guitar is unique, and I'm okay with that.

 

If your career, psyche, self-image, happiness, your "buyer's remorse", etc. can only be satisfied with the top of the line--go for it. I don't really think comparing a broken down, used guitar to a really expensive model is quite the test I had in mind.

 

And I also think there may be a problem in expecting all guitars to sound like an LP on steroids. And I certainly didn't say that you couldn't **see** the differences in the particulars of two guitars. I meant in the playing... I specifically was talking about whether they played as well comparing the feel of the necks, assuming you could adjust string height, string buzz, and intonation. Those are not questions where the fact that you don't like plastic nuts has relevance. I honestly cannot hear or detect any difference in bone or plastic. I cannot hear or detect any difference in a nitro or a plastic finish. All that --- in my opinion as a player --- is nowhere near as important as "can you play?" Tone is my last consideration, because it is completely subject to the amp, computers, and add-on overdrive, etc.etc etc. I'm not really that interested in all that.

 

Anyway, I think I have blundered into an issue where we will not agree, I will concede that maybe the quality of the lower end guitars has declined. When I was a kid, I wouldn't consider buying a cheap electric 'cause **I knew** I would be disappointed. So maybe $600 is the new $100. But I was totally and pleasantly surprised with a $100 Japanese copy I bought new a few years back -- it appears to duplicate the original in every hardware detail. Great playing and sound. i haven't got the fingering where I want it, but it's close.

 

And -by the way- string height is a very big deal with me, much more than "tone." From years of playing I know what I'm looking for. But now I have the added problem that years ago an accident damaged the nerves of my left hand, and over the course of a year the muscle between my thumb and forefinger diminished. Doctors said I needed surgery to recover the use. After about a year I couldn't play at all, but... wonder of wonders, my hand is slowly recovering. Still can't "feel" the string with my pinky, but it usually will go the the correct position. I am slowly recovering my playing, but my hand is too weak to play bar chords. So where I paid attention to the neck, string, bridge relationship before, now that is my focal point where I am most critical. Tone is a little further down my list.

 

I have played top-of-the-line guitars where the stings and neck needed considerable adjustment for my taste. But just like a cheap guitar, that can be fixed. So I stand by my belief. I have owned a lot of guitars, and a good cheap one plays well enough, that I have no need to spend thousands to get some top of the line job.

 

I hope there is room on this Blog for me and everyone who disagrees. I hope we can remain friends, even if we haven't convinced each other. I mean, I have found high-priced guitars in the show room with flaws in the finish. What conclusion should I draw? I can only say that I have extracted many hours of pleasure fixing broken guitars. Over the years, I have managed to do this relatively inexpensively, the most I have spent on any one was a little more than $400. I do not believe I could have had as much enjoyment if I had paid many thousands more.

[kidblast]

Are you really so stupid as to believe that those folks do not build a superior instrument at a better price?

Have you read the article or are you one of those small minded imbeciles that speaks with out any research?

 

I think you are referring to Heritage,

 

I've had a few,

are they good, yes,

superior, no..

[pippy]

.....I will concede that maybe the quality of the lower end guitars has declined......maybe $600 is the new $100.....

With all due respect, overtherainbow, my experience has been quite the reverse.

 

I bought my first guitar, a very cheap (for the time) copy of a Les Paul Gold-Top for £65 in 1976. A real Gibson was completely out of the question; Les Paul DeLuxes were over £600. The cheapest Strat at the time was £375.

Nowadays it's possible to buy a Gibson Les Paul - albeit a Studio model - for the exact same price as the DeLuxe was 37 years ago! Ditto the lower-end Fender Strats.

 

Cheap, well-built good-quality guitars from the authentic manufacturers are more affordable than ever before - at least as far as the UK is concerned.

 

P.

[Riffster]

But, Riffster, much as I like Gretsch, you're describing a broken, used guitar -- bad electrics throughout, and a collapsed bridge (not sure what this means - broken mounting studs, missing screws for adjusting logs, the body of the bridge bent, disintegration of the logs themselves...) It sounds like the guitar must have suffered a serious, heavy blow to bridge. Not normal wear.

 

At this point, I sense a crowd gathered 'round.... " Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!...."

 

And if you're married to the Gibson sound, you probably will not like Gretsch sound. Sound is totally subjective, so i don't really grock why you don't approve of the electrics. Has some previous owner messed around with them, or is this original factory? On the issue of soft frets, the only guitar I have where this is remotely a question is my oldest Fender, the Jazzmaster, with a neck built in... wait for it... 1960 --- still going strong, never re-fretted. I've never had to re-fret a single guitar. If this is really a wide-spread issue, it may be that the guitar company in question is having a management problem and they have let their quality control slide. And some of my guitars have plastic nuts (can't believe the editors will let 'plastic nuts' pass) and I've never experienced any problems.

 

** It never occurred to me to compare a used, badly damaged guitar with a new, more expensive alternative **

 

Again sound is subjective. If you're looking for a Gretsch to sound like a Gibson, I'm sure you'll be disappointed, even with unaltered factory electrics. If you rebuilt the electronics, using your favorite pickups and pots, I'm sure you can get the sound you prefer. And here we can have arguments about who makes the best pickups or pots ! But if the electronics were factory installed, I remain a bit skeptical, and we seem to be at loggerheads here.

 

You missed the point thoroughly, entirely and completely and you did so to try and make a point whatever that is. Completely ignored what I actually typed.

 

I mentioned what the guitar goes for new, and mentioned described the materials, including the wood, electronics are stock and work they simply suck.

 

If you do not see the difference between a $600 Gretsch and a $2,000 or $3,000 Gretsch then you saved a bunch of cash. kudos to you.

[brundaddy]

I did not read the thread so maybe I'm not the first to say this: the justification is that a new market demand has emerged for collecting Gibsons. The real deal 'golden age' guitars have all been collected, but Gibson realizes that people *will* collect whatever Gibson tells them is the next best thing.

[Guest farnsbarns]

I did not read the thread so maybe I'm not the first to say this: the justification is that a new market demand has emerged for collecting Gibsons. The real deal 'golden age' guitars have all been collected, but Gibson realizes that people *will* collect whatever Gibson tells them is the next best thing.

 

Hmm, so, even if I can afford a reissue, and want a reissue, there is something wrong with buying it. Obviously I, and other reissue owners are stupid and bought our guitars because Gibson told us too. There is more antisnobbery around with people implying that reissue owners are stupid mugs than there is snobbery these days.

 

I am not a great player but I can afford to buy reissues, I like them (mine at least) and therefore that's what I buy. Why do other people feel the need to knock that. Jealousy I suspect.

[Sinner 13]

Hmm, so, even if I can afford a reissue, and want a reissue, there is something wrong with buying it. Obviously I, and other reissue owners are stupid and bought our guitars because Gibson told us too. There is more antisnobbery around with people implying that reissue owners are stupid mugs than there is snobbery these days.

 

I am not a great player but I can afford to buy reissues, I like them (mine at least) and therefore that's what I buy. Why do other people feel the need to knock that. Jealousy I suspect.

 

He11 if I could afford to buy strictly from The CS I totally would.

I suspect your inkling toward jealousy/Snobbery may be accurate,

I have two Gibsons, both standard production USA models, Which I enjoy very much.

I consider myself privileged to own such fine instruments.

Anything I didn't like about them, be it cosmetics or functionality, I changed it,That is the great thing about these instruments we prize so highly is that with little effort and basic knowledge, we can make them our own.

To add to the topic of price VS quality.

if you don't like whats available, design and build some thing you do like.

There are LOTS of quality Kits made with decent wood out there.

plus it will give you insight to the mojo of the machine, and who knows, you might actually learn something along the way.

[pippy]

Tag Knows Tone...

 

Thanks for that clip, Roger.

 

They've been seen here before, but here are two more from the same creators telling the 'truth' about spending obscene amounts of money on gear......"Drinking 'The Gear Page' Kool-aid".

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwBnvLaqEZY

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_inwqzxLqmY&feature=related

 

P.

[stein]

So many perspectives, but what is interesting is that some are based on reality and some are not. Or more specifically, that some choose to accept a view and want to argue what IS reality.

 

I don't want to come off as having the only real view on what reality is, but a couple things I think are overlooked here:

 

GIBSON is offering the customer BOTH a 1700 AND a 6000 (pound, Euro, Dollar...whatever) guitar. If one chooses to THINK the 6000 one is overpriced or not justified, why have blame or distrust? If the 6000 dollar one is "inflated" in price, than why complian if one for 1700 is offered?

 

Something else to consider: We all earn a living, and we all WANT to get paid. What we often overlook is that in any comsumer goods, there is more than just the dealer or the factory making money. A dealer is not really going to be expected to make the same profit on a 1000 dollar investment as they are a 3000 dollar one. He is going to want to make THREE times the profit on something that cost HIM 3 times as much.

 

Think about this all the way down: If GIBSON makes a guitar that cost 500 to make, and they sell it for 600, are they going to sell the one that cost 600 to make for 700 for the same 100 dollar profit? That would mean they LOOSE money as the price increases. Same with a dealer. If he pays 1000 and sells for 300 dollars profit, if he payes 2000 he is going to ask 600 profit. More or less.

 

But in other words, if a guitar cost a dollar more to make, it will cost 2 or three more to buy in the end at the same profit margins or 'risk' or whatever you would want to hope to pay. So don't expect that 20 bucks more in premium wood should cost you 20 bucks more in the price you pay.

[badbluesplayer]

EC101. More like EC001. It's not complicated at all. This is what you learn when you're a kid.

[Work in Progress]

That would mean they LOOSE money as the price increases.

Nails on a chalkboard

 

Overall, probably a correct post, though I doubt it's so linear. In other words, I'm betting the % markup grows with the cost.

[Work in Progress]

EC101. More like EC001. It's not complicated at all. This is what you learn when you're a kid.

Eric Clapton model??

 

I get the sense the original post was out of frustration as this concept is, like you said, fairly easy to explain.

[bluzhammer]

Nails on a chalkboard

 

Overall, probably a correct post, though I doubt it's so linear. In other words, I'm betting the % markup grows with the cost.

 

Not really, it may seem that way but not true. What people seem to forget is that the seller assumes the cost of holding inventory until it is sold. I know from experience in dealing with GC managers and being friends with a Platinum Room manager that markup on certain brands is uniform across the product line. If the markup was to grow as the " quality " increased the prices on say RI 's , Customs would be so astronomical there would be zero incentive to stock them.

[TarHeelKid]

These prices are why the used market is flourishing. I play out all the time and work a steady job, and would love a black beauty or 335, but I will NEVER pay those Custom Shop prices. It's insanity. I could buy a used Corvette for that. Pff

[TarHeelKid]

Oh yeah, and the regular production models kick so much azz, I really can't see how much better they can get , honestly

[bluzhammer]

Oh yeah, and the regular production models kick so much azz, I really can't see how much better they can get , honestly

 

Value is established by the purchaser of any item. To each his own.

[brundaddy]

Hmm, so, even if I can afford a reissue, and want a reissue, there is something wrong with buying it. Obviously I, and other reissue owners are stupid and bought our guitars because Gibson told us too. There is more antisnobbery around with people implying that reissue owners are stupid mugs than there is snobbery these days.

 

I am not a great player but I can afford to buy reissues, I like them (mine at least) and therefore that's what I buy. Why do other people feel the need to knock that. Jealousy I suspect.

 

No judgement or jealousy, just pointing out Gibson's M.O.

[pippy]

Oh yeah, and the regular production models kick so much azz, I really can't see how much better they can get , honestly

Around 20%.

 

IMX.

 

P.

[Searcy]

Gibson offers brand new American made guitars at price points ranging from $299 to the moon and all points in between. Last time I was at Guitar Center there were at least a dozen different Gibson models for under $1000. If you can't find anything in a range that suits you, if "American Made" doesn't mean anything to you, if you feel the "prestige" of owning an actual Gibson is stupid then maybe a Gibson isn't for you.

 

Some of you guys in Australia and Europe get really hosed on American made products but before you assume that some sort of extra mark up is being applied by greed heads at Gibson you need to study your own VAT and import tax systems. Free cradle to grave health care and education isn't really all that free in the end. I'm not saying it's right or wrong but that's how it is.

 

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/guitars/gibson

 

$500 - $750

$750 - $1,000

[pippy]

+1 to all of what Searcy said.

 

As far as the importation costs go; it's the VAT which is the killer. Import duty (if my memory serves) is only around the 3% mark but VAT adds a whopping 20%. Add that to the shipping costs already incurred and it's fairly easy to see how, in effect, $1 becomes £1.

 

P.

[LarryUK]

I'll add something else to the mix. Fender Stratocaster! How can a non fixed neck guitar with same shape etc go from a few a few hundred to many thousand? I've watched video's on the custom shop. But with no mouldings and basic parts, how can they differ more than Gibson.

Ie,

http://www.guitarguitar.co.uk/electric_guitars_detail.asp?stock=12030211523727

and

http://www.guitarguitar.co.uk/electric_guitars_detail.asp?stock=08010715481529

[LarryUK]

I never thought this thread would go on so much.

So, another add on. Gibson included. What guitars are in your opinion the best value guitars being built today?

Budget and top end.

I've bought a few cheap ones.

My Ibanez SA160 that I use in my lounge is ok for practice, but won't stay in tune.

My Aria TA50 (335 copy) is a great guitar. Well built, never goes out of tune.

Michael Kelly Patriot. Great value for money, but the electrics are suspect.

..and some more expensive ones

Charvel So-cal. Best value guitar out there.

Gibson Les Paul studio lite. Bargain studio with Ebony fretboard. Great guitar.

I've not bought really expensive this time round as I'm not gigging etc.

But my Les Paul custom 3pup that I had in my gigging days was superb. Never went out of tune during a gig and rock solid.

So, what's yours?

[stein]

Lots of good answers and post here.

 

I felt like mine was quite confusing. FARNS made an excellent one pointing out specifics. In a sense, I was attemting to comment regarding that, because of the responses he got as well. Not trying to clain to teach economics, but rather to point out that with everyone in the chain and process of making a guitar, a dollar at the beginning MULTIPLIES without any price gouging.

 

20 dollars more spent on wood does not mean you get to pay 20 dollars more for the guitar. And if it is 40 more, someone is likely doing business for free. One should not be surprised or feel ripped off to find that a 1700 dollar guitar only cost 500 bucks for the factory to make. Specializing in making guitars means that others have to be involved with the whole thing of getting the guitar to the end user, and that means paying thier fair wages as well.

 

In reverse, it also means that in order to NOT need to pay 3 or 4 grand, to save the end user a buck Gibson might have to save 3 bucks to make it.

 

Maybe that guitar that is really only "twice as good" in effort to make or cost ends up being 3 times the cost to the end user. But the price that has to be is meant for those that feel they have to have it, or want it. It might or might not be a matter of what you FEEL is worth the extra cost, but rather a matter of IF you can get it for less. Of corse, that is up to the guy paying the bucks for what he wants and what is possible.