No Thank You. Henry.

[AXE®]

edit

[ZenKen]

Delivery - B- E

Material - A+ ?

[jdgm]

The march of progress. 'Progress might have been all right once, but it has gone on too long.’ - Ogden Nash. :mellow:

 

It's not going to go away though.

I just thought - in 20 years there could be a 'you know you're getting old' thread on the Gibson Lounge and the post would be...."when you remember hand-cranking a Les Paul to get in tune".

[milod]

Zenken...

 

Actually the "luddite" comment was tossed around quite a bit when Gibson came up with stuff like Robots and the FirebirdX.

 

I really think it's as silly as the arguments I recall from some 50+ years ago over the obscenity of electric guitars when a "real" guitar only needed a mike to be pretty loud and still sound like a "real" guitar.

 

Or... I guess at my age I'd kinda like to see new stuff since I've been getting new kinds of stuff as far back as I can remember - over 60 years. Yup, I have a smartphone and I text. <chortle>

 

m

[BigKahune]

.

 

Not trying to stir the pot, but the luddite thing took off around here after Henry used it in an interview. (Or was that Jay Jay French?)

 

 

.

[Ryan H]

Just offer a series. Don't stick em on all USA models.

 

It's an optional upgrade. Nobody's forcing you to get it. No harm in giving the option to people who want it.

 

-Ryan

[Murph]

.

 

Not trying to stir the pot, but..................

 

[ZenKen]

Tough room. Could be my delivery, could be my material. Have made a few jokes of late that have been taken as serious commentary by the forum audience. B)

 

And Milod/BK, I've been here long enough to remember Henry's "performance" at the introduction of the Firebird X. Hence my joke at Axe's comments on the auto tune doohicky. In fact one of my favorite captured pics from that time is "Henry does Townsend".

 

 

Classic

[AXE®]

It's an optional upgrade. Nobody's forcing you to get it. No harm in giving the option to people who want it.

 

-Ryan

 

You... Need to get out more often.

 

Rumor has it that it will be on all USA models within 18 months. "Rumor" <---

 

And my sources are pretty fekkin reliable.

 

Because they are at NAMM right now,

[Ryan H]

You... Need to get out more often.

 

 

And my sources are pretty fekkin reliable.

 

Because they are at NAMM right now,

 

The key word in that sentence is rumor. As in, not proven. No fact behind it. If your sources were "reliable", it wouldn't be a "rumor". We would have the name of the person who made the statement. Anybody can say "Somebody said this", but unless we have a name that we can check, it's all speculation.

 

-Ryan

[Ryan H]

Rumor has it that it will be on all USA models within 18 months. "Rumor" <---

 

And in addition, who's to say they don't mean "an option on all USA models within 18 months." It's too vague.

 

-Ryan

[milod]

I just looked at the Gibson site and it appears the Min-ETune is an option and/or standard on far from the whole Gibson line.

 

That may or may not be as it is - but I note that for the Les Paul T, at least, "To kick it all into the 21st century—and remember, Les Paul was an innovator first and foremost—the Les Paul Signature “T” is also available with optional Min-ETune™ automated “robot” tuning, which can be added to your guitar with no internal modification for a nominal upcharge."

 

Bold italics are mine.

 

m

[zigzag]

I'm not saying that the auto tuner is a bad idea, but I think Henry needs to give musicians a little more credit.

[milod]

Ziggy...

 

I wouldn't argue that, but I think too you've gotta figure that his comments were more for a general guitar audience than a bunch of guitar nuts like we are.

 

You and I can argue till we're blue in the face about this or that guitar stuff, and we both know the other guy may be opinionated, but knows what he's talking about from his own long-time pickin' perspective.

 

But how many guitars are sold to folks who may or may not be longtime musicians who are getting into guitar playing more seriously than a $100 Epi acoustic?

 

Lots of 'em, and this kind of aid has a lot of potential for them.

 

I see it as an option I may or may not be willing to pay for depending on what I'm playing, where, and for how much. They see it as a way to get good tuning across the strings more easily - which means playing guitar in general seems more easy and fun.

 

I run into the same problem in lots of my own writing - for example on court civil trials. I speak and write quite differently when it's for a more legal-sophisticated audience than when it's for the general public. For example, "discovery" means something different to a lawyer compared to a literature teacher or cat skinner, both of whom have to be pretty bright to do their own jobs well. So you write or describe it differently to different audiences.

 

I'm certain HenryJ ain't talking to "us." It's to a huge potential market for a guitar that gets you in tune by itself. At least that's the marketing thing.

 

So I didn't feel insulted at all, even though I'm quite capable of tuning my own guitar.

 

m

[EllenGtrGrl]

Rumor has it that it will be on all USA models within 18 months. "Rumor" <---

 

If you can't tune your own guitar. Take up the synth.

 

+1

 

I've been playing guitar for 34 years (with part of that time as a lead guitarist in heavy rock oriented bar bands). If I can't tune my guitar decently, and in a reasonable amount of time, I'm either in trouble ability-wise as a player, or there's something seriously screwed up with the guitar. Having an engineering background (I work as a QA Engineer, and have degrees in Nuclear Engineering [a dead field], and Manufacturing Engineering), I'm a big fan of the "keep it simple" ethos of design. I leaves you with less things that can possibly go wrong.

 

But as long as it's optional (not standard) on the guitars, be my guest and use it if you want to. I just doubt that I will. Too many times in the past, when electronic add-ons have been put on guitars, they've had a tendency to fail sooner or later (due to rough handling of the guitar, environmental exposure to hot and cold temperatures, sweat from the player, etc.). They end up being a pain to remove, or fix, due to unavailability of parts (solid state electronic components [which includees ICs] have an alarming habit of going obsolete in only a few years), making it a major hassle to find replacement parts, or even make substitute parts (if you can even find any) work, without having to carry out time consuming modifications. No thanks! I've been down that road as a techno geek chick whose had a ham radio license for a long time, with some 80s and 90s era microprocessor controlled ham radios - their parts are unobtanium in many cases. They die, and you end up parting them out on eBay. I doubt this autotuner's microprocessor will be any different in that regard, 5 or 10 years down the road.

[quapman]

I can tune my own guitar just fine thanks. So I don't give a crap about a gadget like this.

 

But I think Rabs already posted this thing. Apparently some people like it.

 

To each his own I guess.. All I see is a gimmic and another thing to go wrong down the road.

[milod]

Ellen...

 

Yabut...

 

I'm quite capable of using a 1930s Leica that's pretty basic.

 

But regardless of drawbacks, unless for some strange reason I'd go back to such cameras, I'm gonna keep using my Nikon digital SLRs even though they're more likely not to work in my area's winter weather if one can't keep the battery warm... and they don't take pix at all when the battery's run down.

 

m

[EllenGtrGrl]

Ellen...

 

Yabut...

 

I'm quite capable of using a 1930s Leica that's pretty basic.

 

But regardless of drawbacks, unless for some strange reason I'd go back to such cameras, I'm gonna keep using my Nikon digital SLRs even though they're more likely not to work in my area's winter weather if one can't keep the battery warm... and they don't take pix at all when the battery's run down.

 

m

 

I know where you're coming from Milo. I'm the same way with cameras myself (despite not being a professional photographer like you are). But that argument, doesn't work for all things. If the autotuner is easily removable, and doesn't leave a hole in the neck, fine and dandy. But, don't forget the servo motors for the tuners, which are going to add weight at the headstock (how much this is going to adversely affect balance, I don't know). Is removing the servo motor tuners to put on standard tuners, going to leave holes on the headstock? Also if the tuner servo motors aren't sealed up, they will get dirt and crud in them, and will fail over time. Is static electricity is taken into account for the autotuner's design? After all, guitars are often played in bars in the wintertime, when the air is cold and dry, and as a result, walking across floors generates a fair amount of static electricity. Static electricity kills microprocessors (one of which is certainly used for this autotuner). These are potential problems I can think of just off the top of my head. Like I said in my earlier post, the engineer in me sees too many things that can go wrong over time.

 

We have a weakness as a society in that we fail to realize what all goes into making the wonderful gadgets we like so much, work properly. These same things that make them work so well, are prone to failure. There is no such thing as 100% reliability for 100% of a product that is made. Realize that, and you realize that when many techno wonder gadgets fail, they're either a major league hassle to fix on a component level, or in many cases are not even cost effective to fix (working off of the "it isn't worth fixing if the repair cost is over 50% of the price of a new one" rule, that is typically followed), which is why so many of these gadgets are made as throw away items. I wouldn't be surprised if the autotuner ends up being the same type of thing - a throw away item.

[zigzag]

m, I believe Henry said something to the effect that without being able to tune all strings at once, then we are never able to play in tune. Pulleeese... The fact is that we are never able to play perfectly in tune. Either Henry is stupid or he is arrogant... maybe both... probably the latter.

 

Like Ellengtrgrl, I think those kind of add ons are just one more thing to go wrong. And I don't like the idea of needing batteries in my guitar.

[rct]

I'm not saying that the auto tuner is a bad idea, but I think Henry needs to give musicians a little more credit.

 

They aren't making guitars for musicians, at least, not these guitars. Musicians, guitar players, know how to tune all of their guitars and don't like crap that breaks in the middle of their 1083rd performance of Gimme Three Steps. They make stuff for consumers, they can't be bothered with mundane things like tuning and knowing how the thing works.

 

rct

[milod]

I think there are some good points here.

 

Actually I tend to like gadgets and stuff. That's why I built my own computers back in the 8-bit days and up to the 486 era. That's a personal "thing" that probably affects my outlook.

 

But I guess I'm not bothered by the idea of a bit of extra weight on the headstock - although I'd never do it with an SG - especially on the guitar body styles I'm most likely to buy.

 

Ellen, yeah, the more crud, the more to go wrong. I'm in total agreement.

 

Yet consider this:

 

That's exactly the argument I heard in the '50s especially against those new-fangled electric guitars and their amplifiers with those unreliable tubes and you hadda have an extra fuse or you'd be in trouble - and what if a tube broke en route to a gig and... yadayadayada. I've actually hadda replace multiple fuses on a gig when one wasn't always enough on a Friday night rock show in the '60s.

 

Frankly I'm far more bothered by all the government crud that doubled the cost of my Jeep and makes it far less reliable in subzero weather, and could get me frozen solid 20 miles from town, than I would be at a gig with a self-tuner that might go wrong and "force" me to use the tuners mechanically. I've helped pack up a guy frozen solid; I've never seen a total disaster on a guitar gig other than... the actual electronics used for amplification with a tube PA or tube guitar amp. Well... a broken nut once on one guy's Strat in a gig... a bad amp cord... a jack that went bad 'cuz the rocker went a bit too nutso on stage... that sorta thing.

 

Yup, too, that a guitar is never perfectly in tune anyway, but neither is a piano. We're talking about a consumer item rather than a "picker need" item. On the other hand, honestly, I could feature one especially on an acoustic or electric I planned to use with alternate tunings.

 

I easily can understand why Picker A or Picker B may think the things are silly. I certainly see them more as a neat gadget than a "gotta have one" sort of thing.

 

On the other hand, I don't see that they mark the coming of the apocalypse any more than the pickers with 16 daisychained stomp boxes that are "necessary" to do a gig. Maybe it's cuz some folks have a gut reaction against HenryJ regardless what he might say or do. I question some of his words and activities but that doesn't mean I figure anything Gibson's done since he bought it is ipse facto horrid.

 

I dunno. Then again, I have this little plastic box in my pocket that is a telephone, calculator, text-messager, email receiver, gateway to the Internet, address book, camera, calendar reminder, alarm clock, potential guitar tuner, music box... etc., etc. There's too much to go wrong, and I know that it will be a workplace disaster for me. Someday.

 

m

[Valeriy]

:) It seems I have understood the wisdom of Henry. Maybe he take into account that there appears quite a lot of new, so-called sofa guitarists now in the world with their computers and home studios, i.e. at home without hot and cold temperatures and sweat from the player and risk breaking these innovations. And Henry probably just wants to give them the opportunity to dream in these lights of tuning as in the light of the illuminations on stage This is a wise commercial move, perhaps.

[daveinspain]

I think there are some good points here.

 

Actually I tend to like gadgets and stuff. That's why I built my own computers back in the 8-bit days and up to the 486 era. That's a personal "thing" that probably affects my outlook.

 

But I guess I'm not bothered by the idea of a bit of extra weight on the headstock - although I'd never do it with an SG - especially on the guitar body styles I'm most likely to buy.

 

Ellen, yeah, the more crud, the more to go wrong. I'm in total agreement.

 

Yet consider this:

 

That's exactly the argument I heard in the '50s especially against those new-fangled electric guitars and their amplifiers with those unreliable tubes and you hadda have an extra fuse or you'd be in trouble - and what if a tube broke en route to a gig and... yadayadayada. I've actually hadda replace multiple fuses on a gig when one wasn't always enough on a Friday night rock show in the '60s.

 

Frankly I'm far more bothered by all the government crud that doubled the cost of my Jeep and makes it far less reliable in subzero weather, and could get me frozen solid 20 miles from town, than I would be at a gig with a self-tuner that might go wrong and "force" me to use the tuners mechanically. I've helped pack up a guy frozen solid; I've never seen a total disaster on a guitar gig other than... the actual electronics used for amplification with a tube PA or tube guitar amp. Well... a broken nut once on one guy's Strat in a gig... a bad amp cord... a jack that went bad 'cuz the rocker went a bit too nutso on stage... that sorta thing.

 

Yup, too, that a guitar is never perfectly in tune anyway, but neither is a piano. We're talking about a consumer item rather than a "picker need" item. On the other hand, honestly, I could feature one especially on an acoustic or electric I planned to use with alternate tunings.

 

I easily can understand why Picker A or Picker B may think the things are silly. I certainly see them more as a neat gadget than a "gotta have one" sort of thing.

 

On the other hand, I don't see that they mark the coming of the apocalypse any more than the pickers with 16 daisychained stomp boxes that are "necessary" to do a gig. Maybe it's cuz some folks have a gut reaction against HenryJ regardless what he might say or do. I question some of his words and activities but that doesn't mean I figure anything Gibson's done since he bought it is ipse facto horrid.

 

I dunno. Then again, I have this little plastic box in my pocket that is a telephone, calculator, text-messager, email receiver, gateway to the Internet, address book, camera, calendar reminder, alarm clock, potential guitar tuner, music box... etc., etc. There's too much to go wrong, and I know that it will be a workplace disaster for me. Someday.

 

m

 

Milod nails another one...

[BigKahune]

.... On the other hand, honestly, I could feature one especially on an acoustic or electric I planned to use with alternate tunings. ...

 

They tried the acoustic robot into the prototype stage back in 2009 (modified EJ-160), but never went to a production model. I think changing tensions on the bridge/belly were too much to design around.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G65S_mwnyRY

[zigzag]

...Maybe it's cuz some folks have a gut reaction against HenryJ regardless what he might say or do. I question some of his words and activities but that doesn't mean I figure anything Gibson's done since he bought it is ipse facto horrid...

 

Perhaps my language against Henry was a bit strong, but there are many decisions that Henry apparently makes that I don't see are in the best interest of Gibson or Gibson consumers. But, it is not my company, so my opinion is just that. IMO, the on-board tuner is gimmicky and unnecessary, but it may be that some of those guitars will find a market. I sense that most of the people who have responded to this thread, most loyal Gibson guitar owners, are not really behind this innovation.

 

Edit: The biggest problem I have on this thread is with the statements Henry made with regard to tuning issues in the OP youtube.