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Old guys/guitar companies

#21 User is offline   jedzep 

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 02:36 PM

They'll have to pry the neck of my '31 L0 from my cold dead hands. I'll hunt down the old ones until then.
I may not be good lookin', but at least I ain't got no money.
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#22 User is offline   gfa 

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 02:41 PM

Chart

^^^ That's a link to a google image search result. I can't get the image to display in the post, but it's a chart of acoustic, electric, and combined sales, 1990-2015.

Poking around in the Tubes, it looks like acoustic guitar sales dropped off sharply sometime after 2005 (chart is not real specific, but the drop appears to coincide with the '08 economic crash), then rebounded some and show no recent decline.

My impression is that the last ten years or so there's been a resurgence of interest in acoustic music. Lots of indie folk and other stuff out there, some of which pulls a mainstream audience. Mumford, Bon Iver, Ed Sheeran, etc.

@Tim35 - No one is harshing on you, just offering different information and POVs. That's to be expected.
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#23 User is offline   fsharp 

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 02:58 PM

I've seen some discussions here that were just on the edge or over, but this one sure seemed restrained and polite to me. I'm not sure why the OP was so annoyed. For my 2 cents - I'm a boomer (64) and my parents never liked very much of what I ever listened to. The Moody Blues, or Crosby, Stills, Nash just didn't do it for them. They were waiting for the return of Benny Goodman and his Orchestra. I don't like what my daughter listens to very much, but I'm lucky enough to have a son who plays sax and likes listening to jazz as much as I do. It is interesting that nobody in my family would turn down a chance to see Billy Joel or Jimmy Buffet - they seem cross-generational.
I'm kind of rambling here but I guess there's no surprise that kids found/like something different than their parents. When has that not been true?
I don't have a crystal ball either regarding the future of acoustic guitars, but it sure seems like a healthy market to me. Martin and Taylor both turn out tons of medium to expensive instruments and there have never been so many really good small producers (Collings, Froggy Bottom, Bourgeois...). They all seem to be making money. Gibson is struggling (I think) a little bit but how many different versions of a J-45 can they actually keep selling?
Steve
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#24 User is offline   Boyd 

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 03:31 PM

My son in law is 35 and he liked my 1974 J-50 so much that I gave it to him. Meanwhile, the grouchy old men around here rarely have anything good to say about guitars from that era. So I think there's still hope. Here he is with my 7 year old granddaughter and the little Gibson Maestro that I gave her, so I'm already working on the next generation (that's my '65 J-50 on the right). :)

Posted Image
1965 Gibson J-50 ADJ
1974 GIbson J-50 Deluxe
2008 Gibson J-50 Modern Classic
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#25 User is offline   sbpark 

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 04:34 PM

View Postgfa, on 13 September 2017 - 02:41 PM, said:

Chart

^^^ That's a link to a google image search result. I can't get the image to display in the post, but it's a chart of acoustic, electric, and combined sales, 1990-2015.

Poking around in the Tubes, it looks like acoustic guitar sales dropped off sharply sometime after 2005 (chart is not real specific, but the drop appears to coincide with the '08 economic crash), then rebounded some and show no recent decline.

My impression is that the last ten years or so there's been a resurgence of interest in acoustic music. Lots of indie folk and other stuff out there, some of which pulls a mainstream audience. Mumford, Bon Iver, Ed Sheeran, etc.

@Tim35 - No one is harshing on you, just offering different information and POVs. That's to be expected.


Would be better if you could see what guitars people are actually buying. Did the economic crash coincide with higher end guitar sale losses, and once sales went back up in latter years were people buying more "budget" guitars like the stuff from Yamaha, Recording King, etc. or were they buying your higher end stuff from Gibson, Martin and the elite boutique builders? I ask because even though people may be buying more acoustic guitars, it doesn't mean they are buying the higher end stuff necessarily.
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#26 User is offline   GDC 

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 04:45 PM

View PostTim35, on 13 September 2017 - 06:22 AM, said:

Bye..


Best wishes.
Gary
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#27 User is offline   blindboygrunt 

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 04:47 PM

Young folk these days donít huff properly either
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#28 User is offline   jedzep 

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 05:05 PM

Discussing generalities about future trends is pretty much like long range weather forecasts anyway. Pointless...unless it's for fun. Got that Tim?
I may not be good lookin', but at least I ain't got no money.
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#29 User is offline   BluesKing777 

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 06:05 PM

View Postblindboygrunt, on 13 September 2017 - 04:47 PM, said:

Young folk these days donít huff properly either




Splurted my coffee, very funny.


But Tim has gone and wiped his first post, so I suppose he wanted everyone to agree with him and go ra ra ra or was that ooh,ooh ooh monkey noises about the end of guitar.

Well he sure came to the wrong place if he wanted everyone to agree - Gibson Acoustic Forum ha ha where you can say it is black and all say it it white, blue, pink, green........

See ya Tim.


Hey, when I started guitar, I didn't know anyone else with one - searched them out over the years, I suppose, but that is not why I play - to sit around and go oi oi oi - I play guitar because I am totally hooked on the bloody thing that has taken over my life for...53 years! And if nobody wants all them geetars, I'll have 'em! [biggrin]


BluesKing777.
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#30 User is offline   jedzep 

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 06:21 PM

Well said. If it takes you over like that you're nuthin' but grateful. I still find myself late for work because I need to get a chord fill-in just right. Fortunate that I'm self-employed.

So many riffs, so little time.
I may not be good lookin', but at least I ain't got no money.
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#31 User is offline   QuestionMark 

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 07:24 PM

 Jinder, on 13 September 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:


That's the bottom line-young pickers are resourceful and know you can get a killer working instrument for under £1000. It's not guitar music that's dying amongst young players, it's the market for high end instruments.


I agree. And, rightfully so. There are some awesome reasonably priced great guitars out there now. And, not only are young people playing those, but I am starting to notice a number of "old guys", myself included, are starting to favor those too when they are at music jam's, song circles, or gigging. I have suspected for some time that Gibson actually might make most of its money on guitars from its sale of Epiphones on a mass volume...which, along with high priced/high margin Gibsons keeps the flagship Gibson brand afloat to the delight of all.

Plus, I don't worry about Gibson or guitars going away. It's now a global guitar market and no longer just a US and U.K. market. And, the global market is only now coming into its own.

Just my two cents.

QM aka Jazzman Jeff
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#32 User is offline   Mafy31 

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 05:28 AM

View PostBoyd, on 13 September 2017 - 03:31 PM, said:

My son in law is 35 and he liked my 1974 J-50 so much that I gave it to him.[/img]


Do you happen to have another daughter to marry?
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#33 User is offline   zombywoof 

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 06:40 AM

View Postjedzep, on 13 September 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

They'll have to pry the neck of my '31 L0 from my cold dead hands. I'll hunt down the old ones until then.


Amen Brother.
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#34 User is offline   Boyd 

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 09:59 AM

View Postjedzep, on 13 September 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

They'll have to pry the neck of my '31 L0 from my cold dead hands.


Like it or not, that day will eventually come for all of us. So I guess the real question is, what will "they" do with your '31 L0 after removing it from your cold dead hands? ;)
1965 Gibson J-50 ADJ
1974 GIbson J-50 Deluxe
2008 Gibson J-50 Modern Classic
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#35 User is offline   Hogeye 

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 01:06 PM

Lots of good thoughts here so I will kind of hijack the thread a bit and ask you all a couple of questions.

Do you think the advent of the CNC machines has had a big impact on the volume of instruments flooding the market? If so has it been a positive impact or has it been a negative experience? How about the emergence of the CITIES regulations on exporting guitars across international borders? Will this alter the types of materials all guitars are being made of? Will Martin, Gibson, and Taylor have a domestic guitar made from traditional wood and a export version made from politically correct wood? Now let's see who is brave enough to predict the appearance of the first printed guitar. It's only a program away....

I have a Brazilian Ray Whitley and feel guilty about it. Anyone interested.
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#36 User is offline   fsharp 

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 01:51 PM

I've toured the Martin plant and the Taylor plant. Taylor makes a big deal out of using CNC machines. They point to reproducible results as a positive for their instruments. I suspect that part is probably true. The shapes are far more identical than can be made by hand and take less time. Martin uses them just as much but still wants to pretend that everything is hand made. Personally, I don't really care whether a machine or a person cuts out the wood shapes. I think that's the least of the issues. I think the materials they choose, and the care with which things are put together (still all done by hand) make far more difference.

CITIES regulations are going to have a much bigger impact. Its going be more difficult to find guitars with traditional woods. Even for the domestic market, I bet the price of mahogany and rosewood guitars takes a big jump and it will encourage the use of more sustainably sourced wood. I would bet though that they find ways to certify them in a manner that can be brought across country boundaries. They will just cost more everywhere. What might be harder is for an individual traveling with a guitar with restricted woods to travel internationally.
Steve
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#37 User is offline   slimt 

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 02:04 PM

Danelectro had it right using drywall board for bodys. Ovation had it right using composite plastic.
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#38 User is offline   slimt 

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 02:04 PM

Danelectro had it right using drywall board for bodys. Ovation had it right using composite plastic.
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#39 User is offline   bobouz 

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 04:04 PM

View PostBluesKing777, on 13 September 2017 - 06:05 PM, said:

But Tim has gone and wiped his first post, so I suppose he wanted everyone to agree with him and go ra ra ra or was that ooh,ooh ooh monkey noises about the end of guitar.

I was wondering why the start of this thread made no sense!

One of the most significant factors impacting the guitar market, imho, is the sheer number of guitars on the planet. It took Martin until the mid-2000s to build their one-millionth guitar. I believe they are now already past two million.

Add to that a bazillion Taylor, Ibanez, Alverez, etc. guitars, and there are probably enough of these damn things out there to cover every man, woman, & child.

I often wonder how the large companies can keep cranking them out, but they do. So it's no surprise that a bunch of instruments will be hanging on the walls of Guitar Center - but that said, dealers keep buying them, so there's gotta be a viable market out there. At 66 years old, it just doesn't look anything like it did when I was 21.
> Gibsons: '22 "A" Mandolin / '66 ES 125T / '90 Tennessean / '00 J-100 Xtra
'02 J-45 Rosewood / '02 SG Faded-moon / '06 ES 335 / '09 ES 339
'10 ES 330L / '11 ES 335-P90s / '12 ES 330 VOS / '12 LP Special
'12 J-185 / '13 LG2-AE / '13 Midtown Kalamazoo / '14 J-15
> Epis: '66 FT45n Cortez / '00 AIUSA-John Lee Hooker 1964 Sheraton
'05 McCartney 1964 Texan (Terada-Elitist) / '09 Elitist 1965 Casino
> Martins: '00 OOO-16 / '01 Custom Rosewood D / > Ibanez: '81 M-340
> Guilds: '73 F-30R / '74 F-40 / '76 G-37 / '92 D-6 / '94 JF-30 / '97 Starfire
'14 Savoy A-150b / > Breedlove: '10 American Series OO Mandolin
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#40 User is offline   BluesKing777 

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Posted 14 September 2017 - 04:41 PM

View Postbobouz, on 14 September 2017 - 04:04 PM, said:

I was wondering why the start of this thread made no sense!

One of the most significant factors impacting the guitar market, imho, is the sheet number of guitars on the planet. It took Martin until the mid-2000s to build their one-millionth guitar. I believe they are now already past two million.

Add to that a bazillion Taylor, Ibanez, Alverez, etc. guitars, and there are probably enough of these damn things out there to cover every man, woman, & child.

I often wonder how the large companies can keep cranking them out, but they do. So it's no surprise that a bunch of instruments will be hanging on the walls of Guitar Center - but that said, dealers keep buying them, so there's gotta be a viable market out there. At 66 years old, it just doesn't look anything like it did when I was 21.






Yep, Tim has gone off and left us to argue on our own! And others have added fat to the fires to make this thread head to the deleted thread pile a bit later (today).

So argue....here is some more fat...


There seems to be enough guitars being made at the moment for 100 guitars each for everyone on the planet. We don't want Gibson or Martin to stop, but what would happen (theoretically, hopefully) if they did? I mean, most of the people on this forum buy used older instruments - how many here are buying the new ones? Not many! Would anyone here really notice they are gone?

And the CNC question... like computers and software, it is all good as long as the figures input are correct! My day job is mostly correcting endless mistakes entered in our company software...err..endlessly, by people that work here. So seeing this carelessness daily, I am not confident in that happening in endless worldwide CNC machines, doesn't matter as long as there are experienced people 'checking' the results.

Now I have 4 handmade guitars - 3 Lowdens old and new and a Cargill. From what I read though, the main selling point is the sound and playability from the checks made continuously while the guitar is made and the real big one is - tapping the tops and altering the bracing to suit the guitar so every guitar has a chance to shine - no duds, in theory. The big companies run on the hit and miss approach. Apart from mine, sensational, I have NOT played enough others to say what they are like.


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