ParlourMan Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I see what you're saying about spreading themselves thin, but perhaps the thinking is the variations are what might appeal to those buyers out there beyond the 3-4 common choices for Gibson branded acoustics. From the bashers to the fans it's widely acknowledged that Gibson don't sell "cheap" guitars, the flip side of that customer-company relationship is you get something worthy of the prestigious name, or you're supposed to. Here we see workmanship that would be slaughtered on this board and many others if it wasn't Gibson branded. Hogeye and others, Jerry-lad included, have provided local insight to this by pointing to the problem with the process, this is all fair enough. But in general terms you can't get away with firing out that sort of quality with those prices, well, maybe you can for a while, but you don't deserve to... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I see what you're saying about spreading themselves thin, but perhaps the thinking is the variations are what might appeal to those buyers out there beyond the 3-4 common choices for Gibson branded acoustics. From the bashers to the fans it's widely acknowledged that Gibson don't sell "cheap" guitars, the flip side of that customer-company relationship is you get something worthy of the prestigious name, or you're supposed to. Here we see workmanship that would be slaughtered on this board and many others if it wasn't Gibson branded. Hogeye and others, Jerry-lad included, have provided local insight to this by pointing to the problem with the process, this is all fair enough. But in general terms you can't get away with firing out that sort of quality with those prices, well, maybe you can for a while, but you don't deserve to... To be honest... I dont think it will change... Thats why I stopped buying New Gibsons.. I used to buy at the least.. 5 a week.. in the very early 90s up till about 2001.. I still have most of those.. the dead ones went down the road.. I got nothing against Gibson Guitars.. I am just carefull in what I buy now.. I just took a look inside a Taylor 810B I have.. its the same as the Hummingbird on the thread start.. so its not just a Gibson Problem.. its a production Q/C problem I took alook inside a new Martin D45 I just got at the time of purchase.. Its Clean.. But I wouldnt expect anything less from Martin.. attention to detail and consistency .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buc McMaster Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 But these are not repaired guitars, slim. These are new guitars, several months old, that should not have left the factory with bridge plates in this condition if setup techs and particularly QC are doing the job right. While this flaw may not have much if any effect on the instruments' tone, it is indeed a structural flaw that will shorten the functional life of the bridge plate. And yes, it can be repaired but that's not the point of this discussion as I read it. It's great that you haul around a little flashlight and mirror to do internal inspections before you buy a guitar and, in the case of a used instrument that may have seen 20+ years of hard duty, this certainly makes sense. But when dropping a few thousand dollars on the counter at the local dealer for a new guitar built by a respected American builder this should not be necessary......at all. We as buyers of high end American made guitars have come to expect more than that. Sure there will be a flawed guitar now and then that gets by QC and ends up on the wall at a dealer, but here we have two examples of the same thing gone wrong in the same place, the bridge plate. And this among a very small segment of the Gibson acoustic guitar buying public. How many others have the same damage, unknown to the owners, them never suspecting that their guitar has an assembly flaw that will most assuredly shorten the serviceable life of their instrument, requiring professional repairs much sooner than it should. I no longer own a Gibson acoustic guitar, nor a Martin, nor any other. I'm happy with my absolutely flawless Collings ukulele and this recently acquired Gibson uke from the late 1920s that has lived a long life and shows it. I expect an acoustic instrument of such age to have an issue or two, some no big deal, some utter deal breakers. No one should expect that the brand new Gibson instrument they are about to buy has some hidden flaw such as this. But the question remains: how could a builder of fine acoustic guitars with decades of experience and a reputation for quality not know that drilling holes in thin layers of wood will most often cause tear out and splintering without a backing of some kind? It is simply astounding to me that this is standard procedure in the setup department without a second thought. We see the results. This needs a solution other than warranty repairs after the fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 The Martin D45 is a week out of the Box.. The Taylor 810b is a 2001 from a friend that bought it new , Original strings.. .. I just put its second set of strings on it.. I checked it prior to buying the guitar.. Its not just Gibson problem .. well, there is a sound board at the Gibson .com that could use a earful.. a tune up.. maybe thats a start.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarLight Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 To be honest... I dont think it will change... Thats why I stopped buying New Gibsons.. I used to buy at the least.. 5 a week.. in the very early 90s up till about 2001.. I still have most of those.. the dead ones went down the road.. I got nothing against Gibson Guitars.. I am just carefull in what I buy now.. I just took a look inside a Taylor 810B I have.. its the same as the Hummingbird on the thread start.. so its not just a Gibson Problem.. its a production Q/C problem I took alook inside a new Martin D45 I just got at the time of purchase.. Its Clean.. But I wouldnt expect anything less from Martin.. attention to detail and consistency .. Just this morning I was about to pull the trigger, finally, on a brand new Gibson Hummingbird Elite. Quite serious... But after reading things....right here in this very forum...about disgusting hairs stuck under the finish on new J-35's...ugly bubbles seen peeking through many pick guards on the new $4000 Hummingbird TV pick guards...thin discolored and inferior woods...crumbling internal bridge plates, confusing models, complaints of color...even Sweetwater was left scratching it's head when trying to describe to me the color of the new..Brown?...Yellow?...Orange?..Peach color?? Hummingbird.... I cancelled the order. Only a fool would pay that kind of money for such poor quality and shoddy reputation.. Maybe when and if, things look up at Gibson in terms of solid quality, maybe then I will reconsider..but for now...I have simply read too many horror stories about Gibsons to risk buying one at this time. Those multiple bridge plate pictures are a disgrace to find on a $3000 to $4000 guitar. The day I have to distrust a guitar company so much that I have to take a mirror with me to the guitar shop to look inside a Gibson to see if it is falling apart..is the day Gibson loses my sale. That day is today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
62burst Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 __ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 GuitarLite, I feel your pain, man. After all this time , years even, looking for a good Gibson - you finally find one, only to have it snatched away by this QC/PR nightmare. Your insight into "the great quality for the price" of Epiphones compared to Gibsons is coming back to haunt us all. Funny though, with all the bubbles under the pick guards and hairs in the finish, I don't recall a single thread on a bridge plate actually failing. So, I guess it's just a matter of us getting ripped off by something that doesn't "look" perfect, that no one has noticed up until now. Thanks for bringing clarity to this confusing, complex issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchabalk Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Here's mine - it's a 2008 J-45 with Adi top. It's one of the small run J-45s that became the J-45 TV a year or so later. The picture is kind of crappy but it looks pretty clean to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 So, I guess it's just a matter of us getting ripped off by something that doesn't "look" perfect, that no one has noticed up until now. Well, not exactly. As I mentioned earlier, we did an almost identical thread however long ago it was (1.5 yrs?), with plenty of photos of bridgeplates, and many of the same players weighing in with much of the same commentary - although some have amended their tune from then to now. Did anything change in Montana's production process?..... No. Did this stop me from recently purchasing Gibson acoustics made in 2012, 2013, and 2014?..... No. But do I check the bridgeplate & every other part of the guitar, inside & out for structural integrity?..... Yes. The lesson to be learned imho, is that you've got to assess each instrument, no matter the manufacturer, on it's own individual merits re tone, playability, appearance, AND STRUCTURAL INTEGRITY. I don't trust Martin or Larrivee any more than I trust Gibson to put out a flawless product. They're all capable of producing great instruments, but they're also all capable of producing something quite mediocre. If you are after a particular tone, rather than just a name on the headstock, you most likely can find it. If that tone just happened to come from a vintage Gibson, you can probably get pretty close with a new one, and your headstock might even still say Gibson. But there's a catch. You darn well better do your homework & look under the hood. Pretty tough for the unsuspecting, indeed, but this should be done immediately while full return rights are intact. Could Gibson do it better? Obviously yes, and they should certainly strive for improvement - but don't hold your breath. Has the quest of finding a stellar Gibson ever been significantly any different? Not in my lifetime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
father_of_pearl Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Those multiple bridge plate pictures are a disgrace to find on a $3000 to $4000 guitar. Ain't that a wonderful world ! GuitarLight and ParlourMan have finally found a common ground. Now guys shake hands ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Ain't that a wonderful world ! GuitarLight and ParlourMan have finally found a common ground. Now guys shake hands ! Usually you wouldn't have spaces before an exclamation mark. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Just this morning I was about to pull the trigger, finally, on a brand new Gibson Hummingbird Elite. Quite serious... But after reading things....right here in this very forum...about disgusting hairs stuck under the finish on new J-35's...ugly bubbles seen peeking through many pick guards on the new $4000 Hummingbird TV pick guards...thin discolored and inferior woods...crumbling internal bridge plates, confusing models, complaints of color...even Sweetwater was left scratching it's head when trying to describe to me the color of the new..Brown?...Yellow?...Orange?..Peach color?? Hummingbird.... I cancelled the order. Only a fool would pay that kind of money for such poor quality and shoddy reputation.. Maybe when and if, things look up at Gibson in terms of solid quality, maybe then I will reconsider..but for now...I have simply read too many horror stories about Gibsons to risk buying one at this time. Those multiple bridge plate pictures are a disgrace to find on a $3000 to $4000 guitar. The day I have to distrust a guitar company so much that I have to take a mirror with me to the guitar shop to look inside a Gibson to see if it is falling apart..is the day Gibson loses my sale. That day is today. If you are close to a dealer where ever you are at.. just take your time and pick the right Guitar for you.. it really doesnt hurt anything to take along Mirrors and Flash lights to know what you are buying is the best one for you.. as Ive said before.. your money is being spent.. The dealer didnt make the guitar.. they just want to sell it.. if the dealers catch wind of the issues.. they have a voice as well.. sometimes better heard than the a Buying Customer.. Hope you find the right guitar for you.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 If you are close to a dealer where ever you are at.. just take your time and pick the right Guitar for you.. it really doesnt hurt anything to take along Mirrors and Flash lights to know what you are buying is the best one for you.. as Ive said before.. your money is being spent.. The dealer didnt make the guitar.. they just want to sell it.. if the dealers catch wind of the issues.. they have a voice as well.. sometimes better heard than the a Buying Customer.. Hope you find the right guitar for you.. You used to buy 5 a week ? Am I reading this right !? Holy smoke... Guitarlite , while I think the bridge plate of littlejohnnys is a worry and remarkabke, I wouldn't let it get in the way of considering another gibson. Just use a mirror to look inside. I dont understand how you had a 4000 guitar on order without knowing the colour but thats a separate subject I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill67 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Miniwax makes a wood hardener you could brush a little of that on the bridgeplate,It might even make it sound better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanCarlosVejar Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 What happens in the case of a lefty player ? I can't check the inside until 6 months after I have placed an order with Gibson ? If I were to find a potentially compromised brige plate Would it be covered under warrenty ? Or would I be stuck ? JC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 What happens in the case of a lefty player ? I can't check the inside until 6 months after I have placed an order with Gibson ? If I were to find a potentially compromised brige plate Would it be covered under warrenty ? Or would I be stuck ? JC I'd be making clear in my ordering that I wasnt wanting any of the aforementioned problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 You used to buy 5 a week ? Am I reading this right !? Holy smoke... Guitarlite , while I think the bridge plate of littlejohnnys is a worry and remarkabke, I wouldn't let it get in the way of considering another gibson. Just use a mirror to look inside. I dont understand how you had a 4000 guitar on order without knowing the colour but thats a separate subject I guess. Ya,,, 5 a week in New ones.. not including the vintage pieces.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry K Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 What happens in the case of a lefty player ? I can't check the inside until 6 months after I have placed an order with Gibson ? If I were to find a potentially compromised brige plate Would it be covered under warrenty ? Or would I be stuck ? JC Yes, almost certainly a warranty covered issue. That 'plate' is nothing more than a very thin piece of maple. Replacing it is no big deal. They should get it right the first time, of course. All the large makers have flaws of one sort or another. For months they have been exercised over at UMGF over finish issues which are probably also some sort of process problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Yes, almost certainly a warranty covered issue. That 'plate' is nothing more than a very thin piece of maple. Replacing it is no big deal. They should get it right the first time, of course. All the large makers have flaws of one sort or another. For months they have been exercised over at UMGF over finish issues which are probably also some sort of process problem. I believe this guitar was bought in Germany. Does the warranty stretch to beyond the US? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Ya,,, 5 a week in New ones.. not including the vintage pieces.. I think I might be your long lost son :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I think I might be your long lost son :) Dont remember having a long lost son.. :-" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 That 'plate' is nothing more than a very thin piece of maple. Replacing it is no big deal. Actually, it can be a big deal. It can be very hard to get a bridgeplate off cleanly without doing damage to the underside of the top, especially on a new guitar. Aliphatic resin glue is very, very tenacious stuff, and a bridgplate is one big gluing surface. That's why many luthiers charge more for replacing a "simple" bridgeplate than they do carving and installing a new bridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 sorry, double post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
62burst Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I used to buy at the least.. 5 a week.. in the very early 90s up till about 2001. .. ~250/yr x 8 yrs = ~ 2000+ guitars. I think I might be your long lost son :) Nah.. get the genealogy right... slim (middle initials "GC") is Tom (tpbiii)'s long lost son! Tom just gets slim's vintage leftovers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 all I know is my wife wouldnt be to impressed if she found out there were more.. Guitars I can hide.. Kids though.. I dont think so... :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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