3rd Defective American Strat!

[stein]

Interesting views, and I'm not saying you are wrong by any means, but in these days where so much is sold on line there may well be a lot of stock that never sees a shop floor - I wonder whether a lot of guitars just come in to a warehouse owned by a big box 'store' in their carton and then get shipped out again - maybe a photograph gets taken, maybe they use stock photos, maybe the photo is taken by the work experience kid then back in the carton it goes - I don't know. Maybe their contract just says sell as is and if customer is unhappy do not try to fix, return to manufacturer or warranty is void - again, I don't know. If Fender has a QC dept, then the Tele Searcy photographed suggests the QC doesn't involve ANY playing of the instrument - maybe they just check the paintjob and that nothing is broken or missing?

 

 

 

 

 

That's really a big problem, and that's on "us" as much as them.

 

A dealer SHOULD absolutely, positively, be responsible to US for what they sell. And we should be holding them responsible. That's really the definition of a dealer. IF all they do is get and send out, what do we need a dealer for? Why not eliminate the dealer altogether?

 

In a sentence, dealers get paid paid by us, and shouldn't be getting money for nothing.

 

You can't eliminate the dealers, because they are who and what SELLS the stuff. If there were none, Gibson would have to sell them, which would mean setting up a sales division, cause stuff don't sell by itself. I think we all tend to forget that. What people want, how much to make, who's buying or not buying, etc. Someone has to put the effort, take money, etc.

 

That's why dealers are traditionally separate from manufacturers.

 

Sorry if I sound condescending, don't mean to be. I'm sure we all know this.

 

Main point to make here is: we CAN'T forget this simple fact: WE don't buy from Gibson or Fender or any guitar maker, DEALERS do. We buy from dealers. QC issues should be between the one who buys and the one who sells. No other way.

[stein]

Interesting views, and I'm not saying you are wrong by any means, but in these days where so much is sold on line there may well be a lot of stock that never sees a shop floor - I wonder whether a lot of guitars just come in to a warehouse owned by a big box 'store' in their carton and then get shipped out again

 

 

I just GOTTA say it again.

 

If THAT's all a dealer is doing, they shouldn't be a dealer, and you shouldn't buy a guitar from them.

[Retired]

1456980533[/url]' post='1747442']

I put the Strat back in the case and played my perfect 2016 Les Paul for a while. Not a hint of fret buzz, no matter how hard I play. Ahh...I suddenly feel much better!

 

Great! I was playing Wipe Out today by the Safarie's on my Les Paul and trying to get that Strat sound, Ha, that's like impossible. I have tons of settings on my cheap Amp and got a little close but I get a Hum from the amp when I jack with it too much. A cheap $100.00 Vox amp. I want to save and get a nice Marshal amp. Or something nice.

['Scales]

I just GOTTA say it again.

 

If THAT's all a dealer is doing, they shouldn't be a dealer, and you shouldn't buy a guitar from them.

 

Well, as I said at the outset, I'm not saying what's right or wrong - just that its interesting.

 

So lets say 'Guitars 'r Us' says to Fender - "OK send us 1000 US Strats this month to our DC in Palookaville". The role of GrU is that as a dealer they can buy in bulk, carry the cost of inventory cos they got the bulk buy discount and run an efficient enough order management and shipping business to get the axe in your hand way cheaper than ma and pa can at the local store. So if they carry the can for anything Fender don't build and ship perfectly then they are going to have to build their operation around running QC inspections somewhere in what is assumed to be a slick logistics (not musical instrument) operation. Not saying it can't be done, but its not going to be without its issues. And yeah, for much of the stuff we buy that is all they will be doing - or where does it end? - QC checking slightly less expensive guitars, significantly less expensive guitars, pedals,...

 

Just in case I gotta say it again... I'm not saying what's right or wrong, good or bad - just that its interesting how things have evolved. The modern supply chain and 'dealer' businesses that give us all those much loved 'bargains' is built on supply chains that flow very well one way, can do two way if absolutely necessary, but don't do a bunch of value add in between.

['Scales]

I put the Strat back in the case and played my perfect 2016 Les Paul for a while. Not a hint of fret buzz, no matter how hard I play. Ahh...I suddenly feel much better!

 

 

Very cool to hear!

[stein]

Well, as I said at the outset, I'm not saying what's right or wrong - just that its interesting.

 

So lets say 'Guitars 'r Us' says to Fender - "OK send us 1000 US Strats this month to our DC in Palookaville". The role of GrU is that as a dealer they can buy in bulk, carry the cost of inventory cos they got the bulk buy discount and run an efficient enough order management and shipping business to get the axe in your hand way cheaper than ma and pa can at the local store. So if they carry the can for anything Fender don't build and ship perfectly then they are going to have to build their operation around running QC inspections somewhere in what is assumed to be a slick logistics (not musical instrument) operation. Not saying it can't be done, but its not going to be without its issues. And yeah, for much of the stuff we buy that is all they will be doing - or where does it end? - QC checking slightly less expensive guitars, significantly less expensive guitars, pedals,...

 

Just in case I gotta say it again... I'm not saying what's right or wrong, good or bad - just that its interesting how things have evolved. The modern supply chain and 'dealer' businesses that give us all those much loved 'bargains' is built on supply chains that flow very well one way, can do two way if absolutely necessary, but don't do a bunch of value add in between.

Don't take this like I am down on you, in fact, you bring up good points and it's a good question.

 

Right or wrong? I'm saying it IS wrong. Wrong for us to expect or want a dealer to not inspect or take responsibility for what they sell. Any dealer, for anything.

 

Dealer is QC, period, full stop. Business doesn't work otherwise. In anything.

 

Scenario: order a, say, a soup bowl. It's defective. Dealer says, "Sorry, that's how I got it. Not our fault". It can never work for anything if the dealer is not the one accountable to the one they sell to. That DIRECT transaction.

 

Take it a step further. Decide it's the manufacturers fault, and call and scream at them, or expect them to make it right. Well, problem there is "we" don't know what the business transaction is or was. We really have no place blaming someone for what they did or didn't do when "we" were not involved in the transaction. For all we know they could be a gift or never meant to be sold at all.

 

What I am on my soapbox about, this is OUR fault. If "we" don't expect our dealers to inspect/take responsibility for what they sell, or just "ship it out", we are getting EXACTLY what we ask for when it isn't what we expect or think we paid for.

 

Ethically, it really isn't our business what goes on between, say Fender and a dealer. For all we know Fender may well expect a dealer to set up a guitar, check it out, etc. Maybe, maybe not. But we can't judge or hold accountable an entity or a someone whom WE didn't do business with, have no knowledge of.

 

Ethically, in business, the entity who does the transaction is fully and completely responsible to the party they do business with.

['Scales]

Heck yeah. I'm not for one moment suggesting end consumers should need to deal with manufacturers - absolutely it's the dealers responsibility to make good with repair, refund or replacement, no question. And how they deal that back to the manufacturer is their business, you shouldn't even see that....but, what I am saying is that more and more stuff will likely flow from manufacturer, through dealer, to customer without attention in the middle - so unless the manufacturer takes a lead in QC then there's likely to be a bunch more reverse logistics and people getting messed about than in times past. If there's ethics involved there is certainly a trade off with dollars, and many consumers expect to pay not one cent more than the lowest possible price...whatever the cost may be.

[badbluesplayer]

At least you gave it a chance. How can that possibly get through QC?!

[rct]

After another hour of painstaking setup, its playable.

 

No offense bro.

 

As a well known expert on guitars, and since I am never wrong*, I can tell you that a decent luthier guy can tell you in three minutes approximately what is up with that guitar.

 

I'm not dogging you or your skills. I'm not saying you can't set up a guitar that works for you. I've done it my whole life and they've been just great. But when they go see Ernie for a day they are fabulous for a long time.

 

So I'm sayin, an hour more of already long painstaking time of set up is probably not...the right person to be doing it. I've sat in the lounge with a coffee and an afternoon appropriate Macanudo while he pokes at my most expensive and beloved guitars and he is done before my Cafe.

 

So he can spot a couple crummy frets by looking into the case, and he has blocks that he uses to make them not crummy anymore and you won't even get yer coffee ready before he is done.

 

The average half decent guitar guy that has set up thousands of guitars does our guitars way more justice than we do ourselves, as hard as that might be to acknowledge. I have a very long, 40 years almost relationship with this guy, we went to the same school and were in the same bands at different times. He is a gem, I don't know what I will do when we move away from here. If you can find someone in your area that has actually set up literally thousands of guitars, he can tell you quickly if it is a wash. And seriously, I doubt that it is, and I don't doubt your ability at the same time.

 

Good luck with it.

 

rct

 

 

*It's comedy. I'm poking at myself. Even I know I have to take them to an objective third party to get them at their best.

[stein]

 

 

So I'm sayin, an hour more of already long painstaking time of set up is probably not...the right person to be doing it. I've sat in the lounge with a coffee and an afternoon appropriate Macanudo while he pokes at my most expensive and beloved guitars and he is done before my Cafe.

 

 

 

The average half decent guitar guy that has set up thousands of guitars does our guitars way more justice than we do ourselves,

rct

 

 

Seems we have had a lot of threads about this lately. This belongs in another two or three active here right now.

 

I consider my self really good at setting up guitars, but when I was playing, I STILL had guys, and about half the time, they did better than me when I got the guitars back. There's way more advantages than just the consideration of knowing how to set up our own guitars. Time is one. Gaining knowledge another. You don't have to be a rock star to gain from other people working on your stuff.

 

If you are going to have a guitar and amp collection, OR play out or in a band, a guitar guy "luthier or tech) and an amp guy is AT LEAST as valuable as what you have and play.

[capmaster]

After another hour of painstaking setup, its playable. That's about all I can say. The action is on the high side of where I can stand it. There's still plenty of fret buzz, although no more completely dead notes. Its not going to get any better than it is now, so its probably going back. I compared it to my 2013 Tele just to make sure I wasn't being too critical. The Tele has lower action with slightly lighter strings and still no fret buzz. Its a shame because its a gorgeous guitar.

...

Individual Fender saddles with separately adjustable intonation and string height allow for a wide range of options but also are a task in themselves. They should not touch each other, and either height adjustment screws of each should share in bearing string tension as close as possible. Imprecisions may invite buzz. Sometimes while adjustment is on the way, there may occur buzz or rattling in the bridge region when playing certain notes or chords, but I always experienced that rotating some height screw about just a tad was of help.

 

Setup of Fenders may take some more time, but it's worth the while. Due to longer scale, different timbers and construction they also may call for slightly more string action, but it's not that much at all, at least on mine. They typically have as much action at the 11th fret as my Gibsons have at the 12th - no big deal.

[StRanger7032]

I have done setup work as a side job in the past, so I know what I'm doing. I can set up a good guitar in minutes. My Tele is a good comparison. It set up with no effort, while this Strat took forever. I took my last crappy $1250 (used) USA Strat to a very well regarded luthier, who discovered that the frets were pulling out of the fretboard. I paid him $120 to glue the frets and do a full fret job, and it was just ok after that, certainly not great.

 

This one simply refused to set up with the factory string gauge (9-42). I switched it to an 8.5-39 set today as a last resort before I returned it, and had it playing well within 15 minutes. Usually its the opposite, where a heavier set will get rid of the buzz. I'm going to let it settle overnight and test it out thoroughly in the morning. If its still good, I'll keep it. I actually prefer the slightly lighter strings anyway. I really want this one to work out, since I love the look and feel of it.

[flyingarmadillo]

I put the Strat back in the case and played my perfect 2016 Les Paul for a while. Not a hint of fret buzz, no matter how hard I play. Ahh...I suddenly feel much better!

 

It's not just Fender - I had the same problem with Gibson trying to find an LP about 4 years ago. I went through 4 of them and on one of them, actually cut my finger on one of the frets it was so poorly dressed. After the 4th one, I said eff-it, took it to the tech I use and had him dress the frets and set up the neck properly. He billed it back to Gibson (he was an authorized repair station), and while it's not my favorite guitar, at least it plays well now.

[StRanger7032]

UPDATE!

 

This rant thread has turned into a weird NGD thread. I'm keeping it. I still find it unacceptable that an expensive American made guitar can't be set up to play properly with the gauge of strings that come on it from the factory. A guitar of this "supposed" quality should be capable of playing properly with anything from .008 to .012 with a few tweaks to the truss rod and bridge height. This one seems to work only with an odd string gauge (.0085 to .039) and nothing else. Why am I keeping it? First, its damn pretty. Second, I really want a Strat in my collection. Third, the weird string gauge it demands happens to be my absolute favorite gauge for 25.5" scale length guitars (that's why I had a set on hand). Sadly, this is the best of the three American Strats I've owned. I'm not going to gamble on another one and end up with one that's worse. Now that I understand the nuances of this one, I can deal with them, as long as they keep making 8.5-39 strings!

[badbluesplayer]

:unsure:

[Searcy]

[rocketman]

My MIM Strat is not good at all. It has constant fret buzz, which I keep correcting. Humidity changes do a number of it. Also, it doesn't stay in tune well, even after putting locking heads on it. But, my America Deluxe is something completely different. I've never had any issues with it. Maybe I got lucky but it's a great guitar. Same for my Geddy Lee Jazz Bass.

 

My PRS and Taylor are the best at everything in terms of QC. On the Gibsons I find little things like paint bleeds, filing marks, etc. They are nothing major, just cosmetic, although I do question how they allow them to get through QC. Not with PRS or Taylor. They are flawless.

[StRanger7032]

My MIM Strat is not good at all. It has constant fret buzz, which I keep correcting. Humidity changes do a number of it. Also, it doesn't stay in tune well, even after putting locking heads on it. But, my America Deluxe is something completely different. I've never had any issues with it. Maybe I got lucky but it's a great guitar. Same for my Geddy Lee Jazz Bass.

 

My PRS and Taylor are the best at everything in terms of QC. On the Gibsons I find little things like paint bleeds, filing marks, etc. They are nothing major, just cosmetic, although I do question how they allow them to get through QC. Not with PRS or Taylor. They are flawless.

 

Yeah, after three tries I've just decided to live with the inherent flaws that come with a Strat. Maybe I was being too picky. This is a beautiful guitar, but it will always need adjustments with the tiniest change in temperature or humidity. It likes the string gauge that it likes, which in this case is a weird one (.0085). Sure, it could probably be set up to work with the .009 gauge strings that Fender designed it to have, but the action would have to be higher that Fender's own specs to accommodate that. I adjusted the pickups tonight, and messed with the truss rod and string height some more. It seems that the whole neck changes when I fart within 20 feet of the thing! Such is a Strat; I can learn to live with it in exchange for those luscious tones it gives me in those perfect moments in between adjustments.

[stein]

Yeah, after three tries I've just decided to live with the inherent flaws that come with a Strat. Maybe I was being too picky. This is a beautiful guitar, but it will always need adjustments with the tiniest change in temperature or humidity. It likes the string gauge that it likes, which in this case is a weird one (.0085). Sure, it could probably be set up to work with the .009 gauge strings that Fender designed it to have, but the action would have to be higher that Fender's own specs to accommodate that. I adjusted the pickups tonight, and messed with the truss rod and string height some more. It seems that the whole neck changes when I fart within 20 feet of the thing! Such is a Strat; I can learn to live with it in exchange for those luscious tones it gives me in those perfect moments in between adjustments.

I think, with respect, you might be doing something wrong.

 

Strats (and Teles) are likely the most stable, particularly the necks. I have had (and still have) Strats that haven't been adjusted in YEARS, and they are still where they were first adjusted. And seldom do they need adjustment changing string gauges.

 

Wouldn't put up with it on those that you have to take apart just to adjust the truss rod.

[LarryUK]

All of the 'America is best' is just hype. I bought a Chinese Modern player Strat (as new used) for £195. It played better than my Charvel. So I sold the Charvel. Nice low action and no buzzing. No sharp fret ends and for the money it doesn't get better.

I think (no offence meant) Americans have a false image of themselves and the world. They see themselves as a great country. But the world sees it different.

You spend more on arms than the rest of the world combined. The biggest prison population by percentage of population in the world. Which is also slave labour in disguise. Without going on, forget where it's made. Just buy the best for you.

[badbluesplayer]

I think (no offence meant) Americans have a false image of themselves and the world. They see themselves as a great country. But the world sees it different.

You spend more on arms than the rest of the world combined. The biggest prison population by percentage of population in the world. Which is also slave labour in disguise. Without going on, forget where it's made. Just buy the best for you.

Yeah, but you guys can't spell anything. Labour, colour, guitour. Plus, you can't give directions. I think I'll go lock up my cats.

[C-RAM]

Yeah, but you guys can't spell anything. Labour, colour, guitour. Plus, you can't give directions. I think I'll go lock up my cats.

 

Dammit - snorting hot coffee HURTS.

[stein]

 

I think (no offence meant) Americans have a false image of themselves and the world. They see themselves as a great country. But the world sees it different.

You spend more on arms than the rest of the world combined. The biggest prison population by percentage of population in the world.

This doesn't make sense (no offence...cause Britain is also a great country). These things seem proof of a great country.

 

We can afford to spend on, and have, the greatest arms and military in the world, we lock up our criminals...where is the "not great" part of that?

 

Maybe you meant "goes to our heads"....THAT I can see.

[StRanger7032]

I think, with respect, you might be doing something wrong.

 

Strats (and Teles) are likely the most stable, particularly the necks. I have had (and still have) Strats that haven't been adjusted in YEARS, and they are still where they were first adjusted. And seldom do they need adjustment changing string gauges.

 

Wouldn't put up with it on those that you have to take apart just to adjust the truss rod.

 

I assure you I am not doing anything wrong. What example could you give of something I'm doing wrong that would make it unstable? The truss rod is set to Fender's exact specs, using their exact procedure with a feeler gauge and capo. The tremolo is adjusted properly. The saddles are set to the correct radius and to Fender's recommended height. It can not be set to Fender's recommended string height with strings larger that 8.5-39 without serious fret buzz. My Tele's almost never need any adjustments whatsoever, and I set those up myself also.

 

Having owned 3 newer USA Strats that were difficult if not impossible to get playing well, a pattern is starting to emerge here. I'm sure Fender has made some great instruments throughout the years, but these newer Strats are not that great. If they are as good as ever, I've had extraordinarily bad luck having three duds in a row I guess.

 

A professional luthier has confirmed that there is a problem with many of Fender's necks, which Fender is aware of and chooses not to fix. The fretboard slopes upward where the neck and body meet, preventing the action from being set low without buzzing. It requires a full fret job to fix, which I had done on my recently acquired 2011 Tele. I'm not paying for a fret job on a brand new guitar to make it play right. Two different Strat players have told me that their guitars always buzz a bit. They have the attitude that its an inherent flaw of a Strat and you just have to live with it. One guy said he didn't care because he always uses some level of distortion.

 

I don't like fret buzz at all. My opinion is that a good guitar of any type should be capable of being set up with good action and zero fret buzz. I have a light touch, so its not my playing style that's causing the fret buzz. Anyway, I'm going to decide tonight whether to exchange it. They had some nice amps and plenty of other tasty gear at the shop.

[Mr. Gibson]

All of the 'America is best' is just hype. I bought a Chinese Modern player Strat (as new used) for £195. It played better than my Charvel. So I sold the Charvel. Nice low action and no buzzing. No sharp fret ends and for the money it doesn't get better.

I think (no offence meant) Americans have a false image of themselves and the world. They see themselves as a great country. But the world sees it different.

You spend more on arms than the rest of the world combined. The biggest prison population by percentage of population in the world. Which is also slave labour in disguise. Without going on, forget where it's made. Just buy the best for you.

Everybody is just jealous of our freedoms. That's why they hate us so much. As far as slave labor, NOT! We need to go back to the chain gang. Maybe they wouldn't be so apt to offend & reoffend if they knew they had to work instead of laying around.