Gibson sends out a warning to copycats

[Dub-T-123]

32 minutes ago, pippy said:

 

And here was I sitting here under the illusion that it was C.F. Martin who made it Iconic. Silly Me!..................

Pip.

Martin is alright but I dunno about iconic

 

I should make a T-shirt that says “iconic” in a certain iconic font. For non-profit educational purposes of course 

[Big Bill]

15 minutes ago, Dub-T-123 said:

Martin is alright but I dunno about iconic

 

I should make a T-shirt that says “iconic” in a certain iconic font. For non-profit educational purposes of course 

 

I know you say that in jest, but I think you may have found a way to make some quick cash. Wonderful idea!

Some stickers for our guitar cases....?

EDIT:   Patent that idea real quick!

Edited June 26, 2019 by Big Bill

[pippy]

42 minutes ago, Dub-T-123 said:

I should make a T-shirt that says “iconic” in a certain iconic font.

 

Here's one I found which seems to be using the 'Ironic Ionic Italic' typeface;

Pip.

[merciful-evans]

2 hours ago, pippy said:

 

Here's one I found which seems to be using the 'Ironic Ionic Italic' typeface;

 

Pip.

 

 Its what every dapper young man about town with six n1pples and a heartfelt respect for tradition should be seen in. 🧐

[pippy]

Pip.

[Black Dog]

3 hours ago, merciful-evans said:

 

 Its what every dapper young man about town with six n1pples and a heartfelt respect for tradition should be seen in. 🧐

 

I'll never look at a 3+3 headstock again quite the same.  I may have to switch to Fenders.

Edited June 26, 2019 by Black Dog

[Dub-T-123]

13 hours ago, pippy said:

 

Here's one I found which seems to be using the 'Ironic Ionic Italic' typeface;

Pip.

 

Is that a real thing? That has got to be the ugliest shirt ever made

 

13 hours ago, Big Bill said:

 

I know you say that in jest, but I think you may have found a way to make some quick cash. Wonderful idea!

Some stickers for our guitar cases....?

EDIT:   Patent that idea real quick!

 

Haha the idea is all yours if you or anyone want it 🤑

[merciful-evans]

16 hours ago, pippy said:

 

Here's one I found which seems to be using the 'Ironic Ionic Italic' typeface;

Pip.

 

Two years ago, this could have been Man City's official strip (uk trivia)

guitar heroes

[johnnybgoood]

I know management pays attention to the comments here. I very rarely go on a forum site but as a Gibson guitar player for many years I had to respond. Many people are blaming Agnesi. As a brand representative, he can be criticized for his smugness but the bigger blame lies elsewhere. The fault lies with the leadership and specifically the new CEO along with the Board.  Whatever roads were built to regain trust in Gibson for guitar players have crumbled in an instant with the 'Play Authentic' video. James Curleigh as a leader has shown that he places the value of money over the priceless traits of musical creativity and craftsmanship.

I will make this next point very clear for everybody because this is historical fact. Gibson was on the verge of failure when Slash of Guns N' Roses played  a Kris Derrig (RIP) clone of a '59 Les Paul on 'Appetite for Destruction.'  If it was not for Slash's guitar work and the tone he achieved using a Derrig CLONE, Gibson would have declared bankruptcy in the early 90's.  The full credit for Gibson staying afloat and prospering from the late 80's onward goes to Derrig and to Slash. Any true businessman worthy to lead Gibson, should be humbled by this fact and give reverence and space for masterful luthiers like present-day Derrigs and should strive to build every guitar as a work of art.

[pippy]

5 hours ago, Dub-T-123 said:

Is that a real thing? That has got to be the ugliest shirt ever made......

 

I plead 'Guilty as charged' solely for the 'Iconic' logo mash-up.  Others can take full credit for the rest of the design which really is on offer to the general public. Lucky us!...

1 hour ago, johnnybgoood said:

...Many people are blaming Agnesi. As a brand representative, he can be criticized for his smugness but the bigger blame lies elsewhere...

...Gibson was on the verge of failure when Slash of Guns N' Roses played  a Kris Derrig (RIP) clone of a '59 Les Paul on 'Appetite for Destruction.'  If it was not for Slash's guitar work and the tone he achieved using a Derrig CLONE, Gibson would have declared bankruptcy in the early 90's.  The full credit for Gibson staying afloat and prospering from the late 80's onward goes to Derrig and to Slash...

 

You touch on quite a few interesting aspects of the situation here, johnnybgood.

It would be very interesting to discover the full circumstances under which the video was executed - from initial idea through to published film.  I greatly doubt the initial concept would have come from Mr. Anesi and to that end he (probably) cannot be blamed for the content.  Any blame directed towards him  - in my eyes - would be centred on his participation in the project and his hypocrisy  in condemning manufacturers for whom, up until several months ago, he had a great deal of affection and enthusiasm. A 'Turncoat', by their very nature, is always a despicable character.

As far as Slash playing the  Derrig? Yes, well it was mentioned a while back (page #2) in this thread and I doubt whether the irony of the situation will be lost on any of us reading through this thread. As to how much Gibson owes directly to sales of the Les Paul being increased by its profile being raised by Slash only Gibson can guess with any accuracy but I, like you, suspect that his influence would have been considerable. Whether or not "The full credit for Gibson staying afloat..." is down to Slash and Derrig is debatable and I would suspect that Gibson themselves would say that whilst Slash helped sales his influence wouldn't have been the only factor. As Gibson does not make a detailed financial breakdown from sales of guitars available to the public we will never know with certainty what their financial situation was like before and after AFD.

In a more general theme; I can fully appreciate why Gibson would wish to protect their 'Iconic' guitar designs (and they really are iconic designs regardless of all the tongue-in-cheek fun we've had with the overuse of the word) but the Gibson designs - going right back to the  days of Orville Gibson - have usually borrowed heavily from designs of existing instruments. How much does a design need to vary - or have been changed - from an existing design to be deemed 'not a copy' is a very grey area.

Personally I don't know a practical solution to the situation. Should the likes of Tokai (for instance) be forbidden from making their 'Love Rock' Les Pauls; their 'Springy Sound' Strats; their 'BreezySound' Tele's? I'm sure Gibson and Fender would say 'Yes!' and there is, clearly, something not right when one company can so blatantly duplicate the intellectual property of another in such a complete fashion. Why should Tokai (for instance) be allowed to profit from all the development, hard work and hard-won reputation of the likes of Gibson and Fender?

We will just have to wait and see how things develop.

Pip.

EDIT : I see someone disagrees with your post sufficiently strongly to have given you a minus. Personally I would far rather that the person concerned had written an answer outlining their thoughts so we could all read about their own viewpoint.

Edited June 27, 2019 by pippy

[NighthawkChris]

I don’t have disdain for Gibson guitars, I don’t like the new leadership. If that irritates some people then have at it... I haven’t sat around here complaining about binding scrapes and overspray issues or any other BS handmade flaw when I actually play stellar Gibson guitars. That’s all I want them to ever make for me that I will have no issues forking over dough for. I don’t need to be addressed by them telling me what a counterfeit is and that I should be original/authentic. Been playing for nearly 25 years and just don’t care what this company has to say in words like this. Just make something good. I don’t care one bit about them protecting what they claim is their IP or whatever. I will buy a Gibson if they make a better guitar over another brand. They have reached out to me with what comes out of their factories 

Edited June 27, 2019 by NighthawkChris

[rct]

6 hours ago, johnnybgoood said:

I know management pays attention to the comments here. I very rarely go on a forum site but as a Gibson guitar player for many years I had to respond. Many people are blaming Agnesi. As a brand representative, he can be criticized for his smugness but the bigger blame lies elsewhere. The fault lies with the leadership and specifically the new CEO along with the Board.  Whatever roads were built to regain trust in Gibson for guitar players have crumbled in an instant with the 'Play Authentic' video. James Curleigh as a leader has shown that he places the value of money over the priceless traits of musical creativity and craftsmanship.

 

The new CEO and the new Board are not the least interested in building roads to regain trust in Gibson.  They are attempting to recoup decades of good money thrown after bad.  End of story.  They won't be worrying about making guitar players happy for a very long time.  Gibsons are widgets made by a company that was and is in serious financial bad health due to a very long time spent expanding via debt with what amounts to a flat line of income.  The new CEO and Board are doing what the owners, the bondholders, want done.  Make back our investment, and probably, in any way we can.

Quote

I will make this next point very clear for everybody because this is historical fact. Gibson was on the verge of failure when Slash of Guns N' Roses played  a Kris Derrig (RIP) clone of a '59 Les Paul on 'Appetite for Destruction.'  If it was not for Slash's guitar work and the tone he achieved using a Derrig CLONE, Gibson would have declared bankruptcy in the early 90's.  The full credit for Gibson staying afloat and prospering from the late 80's onward goes to Derrig and to Slash. Any true businessman worthy to lead Gibson, should be humbled by this fact and give reverence and space for masterful luthiers like present-day Derrigs and should strive to build every guitar as a work of art.

 

No amount of cult worship of independent luthiers, no reverence, no adoration of "good" copies would have helped Gibson then, and it certainly won't now.  They are in the process of monetizing everything and anything Gibson ever touched, in an effort to recoup bad investments.  Guitars at this point are not works of art, they are products that need to be moved while controlling costs as much as possible while reeling in debt while bumping income marginally over specific periods of time.  Outside of that happening with some agreed upon measure of success, it will be a very rapid fire sale of assets.  It is nothing more than debt, income, and business.  Guitars are probably not even on the minds of the current Board.  Their job is to get back their investments.  Blame whomever and whatever you want, in something as clear as their bankruptcy filing it is quite obvious what happened, why it happened, and who did it.

rct

[pauloqs]

7 hours ago, pippy said:

Any blame directed towards him  - in my eyes - would be centred on his participation in the project and his hypocrisy  in condemning manufacturers for whom, up until several months ago, he had a great deal of affection and enthusiasm. A 'Turncoat', by their very nature, is always a despicable character.

 

My take is that he was merely doing his job, just like he was doing his job when he expressed positive opinions on those Ibanez and Dean guitars at Norm's. He was the messenger, which is part of his job description. I don't know what he could have done differently and still kept his job. With that said, I think the whole thing backfired. How is Gibson going to use him as poster boy again in the short run is beyond me.  

Unrelated to your comment, I still don't get what this whole thing has to do with trust. Making good guitars and litigating against other guitar manufacturers are not mutually exclusive. I'm not trying to be obtuse, but there is something about the logic behind the loss of trust line of thought regarding the taken down video that I genuinely don't understand. I honestly don't see how these two things are related.

I think there has been an improvement in their guitars. It's not perfect yet and maybe Gibson guitars will always have some quirks to them, but compared to what I've seen, especially compared to the 2019 models lineup under the previous leadership, there have been huge improvement on the fit and finish of the guitars. Yes, you still see some sloppiness every now and then, but, based on the guitars I've tried so far and what I read regarding people's experience, I'm under the impression those seem to occur far less than before. The trend seems to be heading in the right direction.

One interesting anecdote is that I've read was of people complaining about the fretboards when the first few guitar batches were released. My Standard 50s fretboard, for instance, didn't fall in the bad category, but it did look considerably better after I conditioned its fretboard. However, I've also seen people reporting that the later batches had better conditioned fretboards. In a recent trip to a guitar store, I saw a new Gibson shipment come in. Although I only saw a small sample of about 7 guitars, they corroborated with what I've seen been reported. The fretboards of that shipments look much nicer than the examples I saw when they first came out. 

[pippy]

14 minutes ago, pauloqs said:

My take is that he was merely doing his job, just like he was doing his job when he expressed positive opinions on those Ibanez and Dean guitars at Norm's. He was the messenger, which is part of his job description...

 

Oh, I fully understand that he was just doing his jobs for both Norm's and Gibson, pauloqs.

At the same time, however, it must, surely, have occurred to him that he had spent some of his quite recent past taking a stance which was the opposite of that which he was now being asked to adopt? In which case would it not have made sense to make The Powers That Be at Gibson fully aware of the situation and the very negative and very public possible consequences which might be the end result were he to go ahead with the part he was now being asked to play? The whole thing reeks of dishonesty and a lack of personal integrity - both of these being values which I happen to rate quite highly. Not that my opinion matters a rat's fart, of course.

And I completely agree that the modern Gibson guitars which I have played have, in general,  been of a high quality.

Pip.

[Rabs]

2 minutes ago, pippy said:

 

Oh, I fully understand that he was just doing his jobs for both Norm's and Gibson, pauloqs.

At the same time, however, it must, surely, have occurred to him that he had spent some of his quite recent past taking a stance which was the opposite of that which he was now being asked to adopt? In which case would it not have made sense to make The Powers That Be at Gibson fully aware of the situation and the very negative and very public possible consequences which might be the end result were he to go ahead with the part he was now being asked to play? The whole thing reeks of dishonesty and a lack of personal integrity - both of these being values which I happen to rate quite highly. Not that my opinion matters a rat's fart, of course.

And I completely agree that the modern Gibson guitars which I have played have, in general,  been of a high quality.

Pip.

I think its pretty amazing the response this video has made online.. Its got to be up there with the Firebird X and the 2015 craziness...

While I am sure part of this is the many people out there taking advantage of this and making videos on the subject to get exposure for their channel and just the general crowd hysteria mentality of the internet..  The fact they took it down says more than anything and I think is what has led to this.. It means that either they just didn't realise what they were doing or that somehow it wasn't ok'd by the legal department before posting and then realised that the information was wrong and they had to take it down?????

I just don't even know.. It would be a good idea I think for them to make some kind of public statement about what happened. Or it just leaves the threads like this and im sure the same on many other guitar forums to go mad and create our own stories because we don't know the real facts of what actually happened.

It is all very bizarre to say the least. Its certainly got us all talking though  🙂

Reminds me of my computer games days.. I worked on GTA, the first one.. You may remember it got in the news that the game had been brought up in parliament and everyone was making this huge fuss over an apparent ultra violent pixelated game that was in fact less violent than an episode of Tom and Jerry.... Well that was because we paid Max Clifford (pre allegation days) to publicise it for us and that's how the politicians and papers got hold of the information in the first place. Nothing ever happened to stop us releasing the game but we got one hell of a lot of free publicity out of it  🙂 

[pauloqs]

19 minutes ago, pippy said:

 

Oh, I fully understand that he was just doing his jobs for both Norm's and Gibson, pauloqs.

At the same time, however, it must, surely, have occurred to him that he had spent some of his quite recent past taking a stance which was the opposite of that which he was now being asked to adopt? In which case would it not have made sense to make The Powers That Be at Gibson fully aware of the situation and the very negative and very public possible consequences which might be the end result were he to go ahead with the part he was now being asked to play? The whole thing reeks of dishonesty and a lack of personal integrity - both of these being values which I happen to rate quite highly. Not that my opinion matters a rat's fart, of course.

And I completely agree that the modern Gibson guitars which I have played have, in general,  been of a high quality.

Pip.

 

Thank you Pip, that was very informative. I think I understand now the train of thought. I don't know if I agree or if I'll adopt it as my own view, but the way you laid out makes logical sense. However, like I said before, in hindsight I agree it was the wrong move. One thing I disagree is that I believe your opinion, as well as the opinion of other guitarists does matter a lot. It would be myopic of them to disregard it. I think that's why they pulled down the video, but the damage was already done. 

6 minutes ago, Rabs said:

While I am sure part of this is the many people out there taking advantage of this and making videos on the subject to get exposure for their channel and just the general crowd hysteria mentality of the internet..

 

Absolutely!! Some good videos are coming out of it, but I've also seen ones that seems to be just reaping the views likes and subscribes (and don't forget the bell clicks for push notifications). 

Edited June 27, 2019 by pauloqs

[Big Bill]

58 minutes ago, pauloqs said:

I think there has been an improvement in their guitars. It's not perfect yet and maybe Gibson guitars will always have some quirks to them, but compared to what I've seen, especially compared to the 2019 models lineup under the previous leadership, there have been huge improvement on the fit and finish of the guitars. Yes, you still see some sloppiness every now and then, but, based on the guitars I've tried so far and what I read regarding people's experience, I'm under the impression those seem to occur far less than before. The trend seems to be heading in the right direction.

One interesting anecdote is that I've read was of people complaining about the fretboards when the first few guitar batches were released. My Standard 50s fretboard, for instance, didn't fall in the bad category, but it did look considerably better after I conditioned its fretboard. However, I've also seen people reporting that the later batches had better conditioned fretboards. In a recent trip to a guitar store, I saw a new Gibson shipment come in. Although I only saw a small sample of about 7 guitars, they corroborated with what I've seen been reported. The fretboards of that shipments look much nicer than the examples I saw when they first came out. 

Your post make the most sense to me. Although Gibson shot themselves in the foot with that video, I think the future is looking much brighter than it has looked. 

Your story about your Standard 50s pushed me over the edge and I just said f--k it and pulled the trigger on at Wildwood and got myself one. I got the Cherry Burst!

[pauloqs]

1 hour ago, Big Bill said:

Your post make the most sense to me. Although Gibson shot themselves in the foot with that video, I think the future is looking much brighter than it has looked. 

 

Totally agree. Because I like their guitars I hope they overcome the bad publicity and we go back to talking about guitars instead of of business and legal decisions. 

1 hour ago, Big Bill said:

Your story about your Standard 50s pushed me over the edge and I just said f--k it and pulled the trigger on at Wildwood and got myself one. I got the Cherry Burst!

 

I hope you enjoy yours as much as I'm enjoying mine. I'm always a bit nervous talking about how much I like mine, because, some people might have different tastes or get unlucky in with their orders. Mine is also a heritage cherry sunburst as well. To be honest, I thought the finish on mine was a bit meh. Nothing is actually wrong with it, it's just that I prefer a deeper/darker yellow. However, I bonded with the guitar so much, I traded in a guitar a few days later that I didn't play as much to get it. I honestly wasn't planning on getting mine and was just curious to try one for myself. I made the trip  purchase on the third trip to the store 🙂

Edited June 27, 2019 by pauloqs

[badbluesplayer]

I just bought a new Les Paul and the workmanship was superb!  I wouldn't worry too much about that.

But it's all business now between me and Gibson.  No more Mr. Congeniality. I thought maybe Henry might invite me and Kathy over for supper sometime... and that never happened, so I'm not expecting much now, with the new guys being so busy and everything.

I just figure if the guitars worth it I'll buy it.

[Rabs]

4 minutes ago, badbluesplayer said:

I just bought a new Les Paul and the workmanship was superb!  I wouldn't worry too much about that.

But it's all business now between me and Gibson.  No more Mr. Congeniality. I thought maybe Henry might invite me and Kathy over for supper sometime... and that never happened, so I'm not expecting much now, with the new guys being so busy and everything.

I just figure if the guitars worth it I'll buy it.

Exactly..

Throughout all of this....  All of these years even the 70s..  There have always been good guitars to be had from Gibson..  Its why despite the online moaning and the haters it doesn't matter in the end.. If you know what you are looking for its not even that hard to find a good one and someone thinks its worth the money they will buy it regardless of all of this nonsense.

In fact I think the Henry 2019s pushed the prices beyond what most of us think is reasonable..  Which I think is one of the big reasons the new 2019s were received so well.. They put the price back down to something we consider more worth it.

Edited June 27, 2019 by Rabs

[Big Bill]

14 minutes ago, pauloqs said:

 

Totally agree. Because I like their guitars I hope they overcome the bad publicity and we go back to talking about guitars instead of of business and legal decisions. 

 

I hope you enjoy yours as much as I'm enjoying mine. I'm always a bit nervous talking about how much I like mine, because, some people might have different tastes or get unlucky in with their orders. Mine is also a heritage cherry sunburst as well. To be honest, I thought the finish on mine was a bit meh. Nothing is actually wrong with it, it's just that I prefer a deeper/darker yellow. However, I bonded with the guitar so much, I traded in a guitar a few days later that I didn't play as much to get it. I honestly wasn't planning on getting mine and was just curious to try one for myself. I made the trip on the third trip to the store 🙂

I have to sell a guitar to finance this purchase so I don't have to live under that bridge.

[Black Dog]

2 hours ago, Rabs said:

I think its pretty amazing the response this video has made online..

 

Maybe that's the point.  Even bad press can be good press.  They're getting a lot of exposure.  Lots of people may have strong feelings about the lawsuit, but lots of people don't care at all, they just want a good guitar.

[Black Dog]

3 hours ago, Big Bill said:

Your story about your Standard 50s pushed me over the edge and I just said f--k it and pulled the trigger on at Wildwood and got myself one. I got the Cherry Burst!

 

That's very cool!  When will you get it?

[Black Dog]

3 hours ago, Big Bill said:

I have to sell a guitar to finance this purchase so I don't have to live under that bridge.

 

But Skeeter and Chuck will miss you so much.  

[pippy]

5 hours ago, pippy said:

The whole thing reeks of dishonesty and a lack of personal integrity - both of these being values which I happen to rate quite highly.

 

....................................oh my word!...and For Goodness' Sakes, Boy!...

I hope my original meaning, read in context, would have made it clear that "...dishonesty and lack of personal integrity..."  are NOT values which I rate quite highly; quite the reverse being the case.  "Must Do Better, Connor!" was the general refrain - then as now....

1 hour ago, Black Dog said:

But Skeeter and Chuck will miss you so much.  

 

Who will be 'The Custodian of the Brazier' once you renounce your claim to the title?...

Pip.

Edited June 27, 2019 by pippy