Torrefied Tops and B&S Tone-Wood Choices?

[BoSoxBiker]

I saw a recent thread where a forum member(JCV) mentioned a personal preference that made torrefied tops on a Maple B&S no-no. I'm curious to know the whats and whys for such a preference as well as anyone else's personal rules of this nature. For or against.

I've heard two guitar demos where the the B&S were also torrefied. Not sure if it was RW or a 'Hog. I thought it sounded great both times. I'm sure there are bad examples or it would have been done much more. Perhaps?

 

[J185cat]

A good question BSB and the answer may be useful to all of us.  I can’t directly answer since I don’t have any torrified top guitars.  I do have two guitars with red spruce tops one of which has almost 19 years of playing on it now.  Both are over rosewood.  My observations on those are that there is the obvious volume and dynamics difference but i believe it actually parts a warmer sound to the rosewood, which can be a good thing.  If the torrified RS acts the same maybe that would not be good for maple?

[E-minor7]

Speculations back'n'forth - some guits have torrefied tops and that only, others also feature baked braces and perhaps bridge-plates. Now back'n'sides too. 

I still need to manifest a satisfying over-vue - both on a personally level and regarding authorized general thoughts on the subject.  

Something tells me things haven't yet found consensus and probably never will reach exact-science-status. The brains at Santa Cruz fx don't believe in it at all. 

I have enjoyed a handful  of torrefied acoustics in shop the last couple of years.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         But the situation is that even my contemporary/non-vintage guitars are getting so 'old' and broken in that no new wall-hanger fresh from the plant can compete.  

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

We are going to debate these, and other things like relic-ing, pick material, bling, string choice, and brand until the day we stop picking.

[Boyd]

I am confused over the whole torrified thing. Is this standard on all the current models now, or only certain ones? Just got a 2020 J-50 60's re-issue and the sound is quite different from my 2008 J-50. The ADJ bridge is obviously a factor, but I was wondering of a torrified top could also be part of it. There is no mention of torrified in Gibson's specs - do the specs indicate which models have this feature?

Edited June 28, 2021 by Boyd

[Hall]

I have a rosewood SJ and mahogany J-45, each with with red spruce tops.  The torrefaction process is evident in the crisp sound and increased volume of each.  Whether it is good or not so good is up to the ears of the player.  I'd like to give an affirmative since I paid for them, but I would like even more to have paid less for each without the process!

[olie]

12 minutes ago, Boyd said:

I am confused over the whole torrified thing. Is this standard on all the current models now, or only certain ones? Just got a 2020 J-50 60's re-issue and the sound is quite different from my 2008 J-50. The ADJ bridge is obviously a factor, but I was wondering of a torrified top could also be part of it. There is no mention of torrified in Gibson's specs - do the specs indicate which models have this feature?

Hey, Boyd; the specs for your J-50 state that the top is Sitka and nowhere does it mention Torrefication. I'd asume that if they don't mention the treatment it's not going to be that top.

[Sgt. Pepper]

I think it will say it if it is. Here is one that states Thermally Aged Sitka Spruce in the specs.

https://www.gibson.com/Guitar/ACC3PP294/1960-Hummingbird-Adjustable-Saddle/Heritage-Cherry-Sunburst

And this one says just Sitka Spruce.

https://www.gibson.com/Guitar/ACCJ5F910/60s-J-45-Original/Ebony

Edited June 28, 2021 by Sgt. Pepper

[62burst]

What JCV was speculating regarding  how maybe maple b & s might not be a good match with a torrefied top sounds like a fairly good guess- just as adirondack might be redundant, too- maple bodied guitars will more than cover much of the tonal real estate gained by a guitar w/ adi/red spruce. if anything, I’d want to warm/soften some of that maple bite with some tight grained Sitka. 

[62burst]

13 minutes ago, Hall said:

…  I'd like to give an affirmative since I paid for them, but I would like even more to have paid less for each without the process!

It could just be another feature used to justify the increase in the cost of the guitar.

Boyd- you’d have to take a look at some photos of natural topped guitars to see how the torrefication process would change the appearance of a guitar like a J-50, but on a sunburst guitar, the ‘burst finish takes on a more dramatic appearance. .  grain lines more noticeably darkened.

Something about curing that wood in the absence of oxygen.

[BoSoxBiker]

That's interesting. Maybe they found a combo they did not like. Perhaps this is the reason why the Historic Collection is pretty consistent. Maple B&S with baked Sitka Spruce while non-Maple have baked Red Spruce. The HC Hummingbirds are the exception.

FWIW, my baked Dove has Sitka as well. 

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

3 minutes ago, BoSoxBiker said:

That's interesting. Maybe they found a combo they did not like. Perhaps this is the reason why the Historic Collection is pretty consistent. Maple B&S with baked Sitka Spruce while non-Maple have baked Red Spruce. The HC Hummingbirds are the exception.

FWIW, my baked Dove has Sitka as well. 

 

12 of the acoustics in the Acoustic Custom Shop have thermal tops.

Edited June 28, 2021 by Sgt. Pepper

[zombywoof]

Be careful.  We are starting to tread  close to sounding like we have drank from the Tone Wood Kool Aid.

The only personal experience I have with torrefied wood is the maple bridge plate which I had installed in a Harmony after converting it to a pin bridge and losing the original spruce bridge plate.  Still I have never heard any complaints about terrified tops no matter what rim and back they were sitting atop of.

[Boyd]

OK, thanks, now I see. There's a separate "Custom Shop Historic Collection" vs the "Original Acoustic Collection" of which the J-50 is a member. I was thinking all the guitars with a date as part of the name were in the same "collection"... but was obviously wrong. 🙃

[62burst]

5 hours ago, 62burst said:

. . . adirondack might be redundant, too- maple bodied guitars will more than cover much of the tonal real estate gained by a guitar w/ adi/red spruce. . . 

well, that glass of tonal Koolaid was only half full. 'Should've said that putting adirondack top on a maple guitar might take things a bit off in one particular direction.

EDIT:

a tasty example- The (dramatique) Toasted Bird : 

Edited June 28, 2021 by 62burst

[Brucebubs]

In 2016 Gibson released a very limited edition 1957 SJ-200 with thermally aged Adirondack top - I couldn't find one to buy!

So in 2020 when they released the new Custom Shop Historic 1957 SJ-200 - this time with thermally aged Sitka Spruce top -  I ordered one and love it.

Probably richer and warmer tone than I was expecting - to my ears 80/20's seem better balanced than PB's for some reason.

 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Brucebubs

[Lars68]

I have yet to play a baked guitar of any kind. If they all look like the Hummingbird above, I think the price increase could be worth it based on appearance alone. It looks amazing!! However, from all the pictures I've seen online, the Hummingbird above is not a good representative of the “baked look”. I find all too many of them to be too dark and with too pronounced grain lines for my liking. Many, but not all, of them do not look normal. 

So, if I'm thinking of buying a new guitar and can't play it in advance, I would care more about the effects on looks that torrefication might have, than any hard to define impact on tone. From my reading, the effect on tone seems to be a personal preference thing.

I can agree, though, that on paper, going with adi, torrefication, and maple, could be too much of a a good thing. It might just make for a very harsh sounding guitar, but that's just speculation...

Lars

Edited June 29, 2021 by Lars68

[Mr.Woody]

I think it works really well with the mahogany B&S. This was new, and it has since still opened up quite a bit.

https://youtu.be/yyzDxdkf7Y8

 

[Dave F]

I had a Martin with the aged Sitka over EIRW. I was very impressed with it. From my limited experience it sounded like a 50 year old guitar. 
I have a Gibson Southern Jumbo with the aged Red Spruce top over RW.  From my experience it sounds like something from the early 50’s. 
I would like to get these guitars in someone’s hands like John and Tom to get an honest opinion from someone that’s not trying to sell you something. 

[TomPhx]

I have a 2017 SJ200 Western Classic and one of the new 60s Hummingbirds with fixed bridge. Both have thermally cured tops, with the 200 having Adirondack and the bird Sitka. The 200 has rosewood back/sides, which makes it tough to compare with a maple backed, non torrefied Standard.

I did have a Standard Bird for a few years and sold it shortly before I got the 60s Bird. The difference in sound is definitely there, with the 60s sounding deeper and more resonant than the Standard. How much of that difference is based on the top is hard to say. The thin VOS finish and any other build differences would also have an impact on sound I would think. This newer Bird is noticeably lighter than the Standard was.

They both sound really good to me though, so there is that... 🙂

Edited July 2, 2021 by TomPhx

[BoSoxBiker]

On 6/29/2021 at 7:45 AM, Lars68 said:

..........

I can agree, though, that on paper, going with adi, torrefication, and maple, could be too much of a a good thing. It might just make for a very harsh sounding guitar, but that's just speculation...

Lars

To your point, to a point....

I started my better-quality acoustic guitar journey on one with a baked-Sitka top with Maple B&S. It sounded nice. I met a few other people who had one as well and we all raved about it. Swore I would never get rid of it. I sold it within 5 years. Simply put, it lost that special character that was in the tone in rapid fashion over the final 18 months. It got to the point where I could tell my wife didn't like it when it was that guitar's week on the stand. It became just as you said. Harsh.

It was a cannon, but not in a good way for me at the end. I sold it with total fair warning. The person that bought it turned and put it up for sale within a week just to recoup his $$. Being of guilty conscience and a moron, I asked him if I had been wrong in my description. Luckily, he said I described it perfectly and he now understood. It sold within a couple of hours and that's the last I heard of it.

Interstingly, it had a sibling of the same brand and shape, but with an unbaked top, and Mahogany B&S. This one lasted me a year. I was told it would simmer down. Yeah, nope. I traded it in towards my Hummingbird. The rest is history, as they say. So, circle back to the Maple I described above. The Maple guitar ended up sounding like the 'Hog one did to the point where it was just loud and over-bright, but it was more harsh than the Hog. I wrote the whole thing off as that brand's sound gone wrong. A year later, that all changed when they changed something in their construction. Much of that sonic brightness had been replaced with mellowed out sound. For a while, though, that Maple version with the baked top was glorious. 

Fast forward now to the baked Dove. I'd never heard a Dove in person. I'd never heard of the baked tops and Maple B&S being too much of the same thing factor. Time will tell. There is not a whole lot of similarity between the dove and that Maple from now 6 years ago. One huge difference from a functional standpoint worth mentioning, though. The Dove recorded wonderfully mic'd up on the first try within weeks after getting it. The other brand never did in either material. Plugged in and played slowly through the electronics, yes, but neither had ever mic'd well for me. Every Gibson and my Martin have sounded pretty when mic'd up.