dbreslauer Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I guess my bottom line is whether making music is part of one's own self-identity. Music can't be taken away from inside me even were I to be imprisoned in solitary confinement of some sort the rest of my life - hence no audience. Ditto the crafting of words for the sheer doing of it, if only in my own head and no mechanism to place those words for others to perceive. Etc. m i like this point best. given the fundamentals, if you believe yourself to be a musician, who's to argue? "i think therefore i am." :) Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrosurfer1959 Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Interesting points and topic that Ive discussed on other forums as it comes up allot among commercial artists. Very good points but still kind of a stretch that means that anyone that keeps a journal is an author, and somebody that love doing paint by number pictures is a painter? I can see where people would feel good about that and they might be artistic or musical? But I still think it's a stretch that's the argument so many people have calling DJ's musicians they are doing something artistic and maybe even a performance piece but doing cut and paste inserts of other artist music doesn't make them a musician and noodling around on a guitar at home doesn't make a musician. Milod as a photographer it will be interesting to hear your opinion on this point - because I always think about photography as the clincher in this argument. I doubt if many people anywhere would argue that Ansel Adams and/or Annie Leibowitz are not true artist's that chose a cam,era as the medium to share their gift? But what about the millions of people that own digital camera's? I have a Niece that loves photography and takes several hundred snap shots a week (usually of her two year old baby girl) it's one of her favorite past times and she absolutely loves doing it. She then emails her simple snapshots and annoys almost everyone she knows by spamming her friends and family showing us her child's life in about 15 minute segments. She loves it even though nobody else does - is she an artist or just a pushy new mommy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damian Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Interesting thread; No profound statements from me for this thread................however................... One will always realize that one is a musician when someone in the audience screams " Get off the ****in' stage !!!!!! " That is one example when one realizes one is FINALLY a musician............ [lol] ............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lungimsam Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 If you are expressing yourself through music, you are a musician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrosurfer1959 Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Interesting thread; No profound statements from me for this thread................however................... One will always realize that one is a musician when someone in the audience screams " Get off the ****in' stage !!!!!! " That is one example when one realizes one is FINALLY a musician............ [lol] ............... Ain't that the truth - Years ago we used to play some real dives I was playing at a place in the middle of nowhere called the Stoneman Lake Lodge - I broke a guitar string and everybody just looked at me, then about four people threw beer bottles. Guess it was some kind of a tradition??? It was the same bar that somebody put a bullet hole into one of my guitars, I honestly never heard it and have always hoped they took the pot shot while it was sitting in a stand during a break and not while I was playing it after all the lower bout on a LP is too close to my privates, if I was holding it when they popped the cap. Gotta be proud of the LP's though it looked like was a 25 auto or 22 caliber bullet and I played the guitar for three or four years with the bullet in it with no problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I would define a musician as somebody who makes music. Anybody from Mozart to the guy whistling in Walmart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroyama Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Paid gig. Ive been playing guitar since 91. Ive played guitar onstage for bar patrons *open mike night*. I'm not a musician yet. Its not the money that adds value to your music. Its the process of getting hired, performing, and gettin cheddared. Even if its only cheeto crumbs. I'll be there someday. I dont expect to sell out arenas, but I'll play my set, get paid, and be happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marvar Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I've often thought about this subject- In my mind, a musician is one that can play or is open to try to play any genre of music on his/her instrument. I don't feel that you have to be paid to be a 'musician'. It's about knowing your instrument. It should be for the love of music. There is this guy in town, he is fairly famous, both as a player, and a rock author/historian. I was talking with him one day, and he proudly told me in no uncertain terms, that he had never owned and acoustic guitar, and never had any plans to get one, and didn't have any use for one. At that moment, in my mind, he became just a rock guitar player, not a musician in the well-rounded sense. He was closed-minded as to any concept of music except for electric guitar, and rock and roll. I look at guys like Mike Campbell (Tom Petty) as musician, he plays what is needed for the song-it's more about the music, than "look how many notes, and riffs I can play with the amp dimed." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShredAstaire Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I've been watching this thread as it unfolds and the more i think about it, the more i don't care who calls themselves a musician. I mean, does it really matter? Some guy with a kazoo could call himself a musician and half of you will condemn him for it and half of you will agree with him...in the end, does it affect anyone? What about the Spoons? I would say that if you are comfortable enough to call yourself a musician (good, bad or somewhere in the middle), then you're a musician and don't worry about the detractors. I am a musician. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanvillRob Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 When we get into stuff like this it's almost more a matter of semantics than anything. m Semantics..... Milo is usually right on these things. If I asked you how many legs a dog has...you'd probably say "four". If I said to you, let's consider that the tail is a leg...THEN how many legs does a dog have. You might say five...but a dog has four legs... I can call the tail a leg, but it ain't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L5Larry Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Time to weight in, I guess.... Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary (1977) defines "Musician" as "a composer, conductor, or performer of music." That definition surely doesn't say much (seven words), and I would even take exception to the "conductor" part (although most, if not all, conductors were previously instrumentalists, I don't think the position of conductor in itself as being a musician). I would say in all the above mentioned artistic vocations (writers, photographers, painters, sculptures, musicians, etc) that the dividing lines would be someone who creates or performs for "commercial purposes". That doesn't necessarily mean to get paid, but to produce, perform, or offer your art for "public consumption", critique, and enjoyment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanvillRob Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Time to weight in, I guess.... Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary (1977) defines "Musician" as "a composer, conductor, or performer of music." That definition surely doesn't say much (seven words), and I would even take exception to the "conductor" part (although most, if not all, conductors were previously instrumentalists, I don't think the position of conductor in itself as being a musician). I've never known a conductor who just waved a stick around... they arrange the music and add/delete instruments as needed for the piece. I'd consider a conductor to be more or a musician that the journeymen who play their part of songs by simply reading dots on a page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DennisMiller Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I think there needs to be a line somewhere though, I just don't know where. I'll suggest a line... If you get paid to play music, (full time or part time), you are a musician. If you play for fun, you are a guitar player, or the player of whatever instrument you play. Thus, I don't consider a DJ who scratches a record to be a musician any more than wheeling my recycle can to the curb last night made me an environmental engineer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notes_Norton Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 What does it take to be a musician? Easy: A musical instrument (any one will do) Practice Talent What does it take to be a good musician? Pretty much the same things, but more in both the practice and talent department. There is no definite line between a musician and a good one, but most people can hear when someone is good. What does it take to be a musician in any band I run? A good dose of all of the above plus: Knowledge of enough music theory for the type of music we will be playing and to communicate with other educated musicians A great attitude that reflects the joy of playing - it will show on stage Strict work ethics, nothing is more important than entertaining the crowd - show up on time, no long breaks, etc. This includes singers. Notes ♫ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Okay.... To the question of "photographer." Yeah, anybody can be a photographer, and in ways have had that capability since the first Kodak cameras that people could click and send off for developing. A professional photographer is someone who takes photos for money. Some are more skilled and talented than others - and those skills and talents may be different. For example, I've always said that I may not be the most talented, but that I'll get you "something" on almost any assignment that is a publications-quality shot even if I have to get a grocery store throwaway camera to do it. What I'd like? No, but "something." Many can't do that. On the other hand, there are talented folks who don't do it for a living who create better "art" photos than I think I've done. My brother who's a software type just sent me some shots from Seattle that are gorgeous and well composed. Probably could win some art photo competitions. But do we send him to do a martial arts magazine cover or photojournalism at a disaster? I don't think so because those are beyond technique and talent into a sort of professionalism. It's the same with music, IMHO. You're a musician if that's what you are. Your skills will be developed with what talent you have within certain ways. If doing it for money is part of that development, you will develop professional skills appropriate to what you're doing for money - and those also are different if it's teaching, playing in an orchestra, entertaining in saloons or doing studio work... m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvanPC Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I'll suggest a line... If you get paid to play music, (full time or part time), you are a musician. If you play for fun, you are a guitar player, or the player of whatever instrument you play. Thus, I don't consider a DJ who scratches a record to be a musician any more than wheeling my recycle can to the curb last night made me an environmental engineer. I'll be watching closely to see if everyone comes to an objective definition of musician; particularly if it's unanimously decided that just playing music makes one a musician. If you're a person of principle, you must apply this logic to all aspects of life. If this indeed happens, I'll need new (and much larger) business cards, as well as a major overhaul on my resume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artie Owl Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Musicians create music the way blacksmiths smith metal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPguitarman Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 A musician is someone who can play at least one instrument well enough that others enjoy listening. You don't have to be paid to be a musician and there are different types of musicians: beginner, amateur, & professional, but they are all musicians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Again, I think there's a difference between being a photographer/writer/musician or whatever as part of what and who you are, and in being a professional - or in being a "performer." It's three different things and, in ways, entirely different skill sets. A full-time orchestra violinist has, in ways, an easier time of it in some ways than a professional "gigging" fiddler or guitar player - or a professional studio violin/fiddle player. There are a lot of things that make a pro, regardless of specialty. Ability - both talent and skill - to play an instrument or to sing are just part of it. In fact, I'd say that the ability to stand up and "perform" in front of a large group is not necessarily part of it. A person who does only studio type gigs ain't gonna have much of an audience. A highly talented and skilled music teacher may freeze in a public performance. Some highly skilled and talented people can improvise, some can't, but can write music; some can't play without a map... Styles... etc... Then there's the business side of it. Some extremely talented musicians who might do well as a salaried employee may be a total business flop at starting a teaching studio or trying to gig on one circuit or another. It's the same, I'll add, with writers and photographers. So... That's why I say if being a musician is part of what makes you, "you," you're a musician. Whether you're a professional musician, or whether you're a performer, are entirely different questions. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DennisMiller Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I still think it's more like a title that's earned by vocation. You have good and not so good musicians, just like you can have good and not so good doctors, lawyers and athletes. The point is, you can go to a concert and the opening band might be terrible, but if what they do is play music for a living, they're musicians, regardless how little you may appreciate their act. Me or my friends getting together for a jam, playing our guitars and singing, as much as I feel some of them should quit their day jobs, doesn't, IMHO, make us musicians. We are businessmen, bankers, engineers, roofers, lawyers and even a genuine rocket scientist, but we are just guitar players. If we're having fun and with hopes the professionals are making a living, does it matter what someone calls us if we all enjoy playing the music? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Dennis... I dunno. I think there are parts of you that may not be undone and are part of you regardless, just as your genetics are part of you and, in a sense, define you. We are here because we have certain DNA that in a number of ways make us disposed to making music more than others; we have certain thought patterns, from DNA or from nurture is perhaps difficult to ascertain, but that also make us more disposed to make music part of our life than others. Some of us do not and have not made a living from music. Others have. There are many ways to make a living from music that may not have been open, or at least apparent, to many of us who might have made that choice. It's the old "road not taken" bit. And I've known many who made a living at music in the old radio/regional circuit days who were famous in their era, but ended up running a restaurant or music store or working as a mechanic. Are they not musicians or... are they not musicians if they stopped playing for money and perhaps stopped playing entirely? I think those who may have talent and skill, but see making music as a short term way to make money or gain group status as a short term avocation, may not be musicians even if they're famed in some way as makers of music. Those who cannot stop doing music... again regardless of skill or even whether playing physical instruments is impossible... are musicians. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tartanbeastie Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I spent around 18 years making kilts and tailoring, It was my proffession, my job but it didnt define who I was. I dont need a label because i have a name. Words, labels like musician are in my mind more used by those who are of a different background or trade in order to associate or identify and recognise certain people. During my previous work, i spent years being recognised as the kiltmaker or tailor from Georgian. (the old shop back in aberdeen) I could be standing having a pee in a bar and I'd get the "i recognise you but cant remember your name" my reply was " have you hired or bought a kilt or tuxedo lately?" immediately they knew who i was. What does it take to be called a musician? Hard one to answer but if thats what you are recognised as doing then i think thats partly the answer. The other part of the answer is possibly just having the ability, regardless of whether its learned or instinctive to be able to play an instrument or carry a tune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G McBride Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I am a musician because I make music. I can read music or play music by ear. I can hear the notes in my head before I play them. I know how I want the notes to sound and how loud I want to play them. Am I a good musician, now that is subject to opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanvillRob Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I am a musician because I make music. I can read music or play music by ear. I can hear the notes in my head before I play them. I know how I want the notes to sound and how loud I want to play them. Am I a good musician, now that is subject to opinion. Yeah, but would anyone recoginze you if you were having a pee? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Tartan... I don't see "musician" as a job title, but as a personality trait. There's a huge difference there. It's something you can't stop being. We've all probably had a number of jobs we've done well, but are not "us." I cook rather well, for example, and have done so for money. But I'd never claim that I am a chef. It's not a personality trait, but rather a developed skill. I don't "think cooking" unless there's a question raised; I do think music and visualize/audiolize <grin> technical issues unbidden even by my own consciousness. Again, neither talent nor skill at something necessarily make that part of one's personality, but... m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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