saturn Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 We talk a lot and post clips of great guitar playing. But it seems mostly centered around blazing chops or awesome tone. IMO, the technique (if you can really call it that) of phrasing is the most important. The musical phrases are what makes a solo or fill memorable. It's not really something that can be taught or practiced in the same way that someone can play scales 1000 times a day and get super fast doing it. Phrasing seems to come more from the creative part of the brain, similar to song writing. Some of the better players in this style IMO are Tony Iommi, Jimmy Page and of course David Gilmore. What would a thread about guitar soling be without a clip to go with it B) Skip ahead to 3:13 for an example of some great phrasing solos. Even all the fills between the ending vocals are really great. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EL67mjv1nM What are your opinions on this aspect of guitar playing and who are some other artists that come to mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 IMO, good guitar solo phrasing comes from being a to sing a melody in ones head and have it transfer down to the fingers. It appears that some players focus on scaling rather than singing a solo .... But I like shredders too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Notes_Norton Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 That goes for all instruments, guitar, sax, flute, violin, trombone, trumpet, and so on. Phrasing, dynamics, and melody work a lot better for me than blazing chops if it's an either/or situation. Of course, great chops and a great sense of melody (which includes phrasing) makes for the best listening experience for me. Technique can be taught. Anyone who isn't physically handicapped can learn to play all the scales and runs necessary for any genre of music if he/she puts in enough time and practice. But by themselves, the scales and runs are just empty notes. Turning those empty notes into music is where the talent comes into play. I don't know if that can be taught at all. Insights and incites by Notes ♫ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 IMO, good guitar solo phrasing comes from being a to sing a melody in ones head and have it transfer down to the fingers. It appears that some players focus on scaling rather than singing a solo .... But I like shredders too I agree completely. In fact that is how Gilmour creates a lot of his solos. He sings/scating them first and then puts a few of them on tape and mixes and matches. You can hear him doing this when he is playing the solo in Wish You Were Here. I always told my students that one of the main things they need to learn how to do is sing/say what they are trying to play in their head or out loud. If you can't hear what your playing in your mind then your fingers are just going through the motions. In other words you are not playing what your hearing in your head, you are hearing what you are playing with your fingers. Big difference. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 For what an old guy's opinion is worth... throughout the years the singers and instrumentalists I've personally preferred have stuck largely to melodic lines, but with phrasing that made those lines more somehow than written. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 My instructor pointed out that many great solos would not even exist if the ones who played them could shred. Most of us (and I know I am) are limited by our physical and mental capacities to shred. That is not necessarily a bad thing given what has been said in this thread about phrasing and melody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAS44 Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Damned fine thread here. When it comes down to it, the way I see it is "taste". A truly great guitarist can say more with two notes than an mediocre one can with one hundred. I'd pose BB King and Albert king as perfect examples of such. They are not fast players, not by a long shot, but what they make with one simple note is incredible. Take BB's customary slide off the root, it's simple, and it is almost like a sonic exclamation point (this song is riddled with the sort of playing I'm talking about). The man speaks with his guitar, he speaks with the rest of the band with the eloquence that Hemingway might write a book. He drops in the solos in the most opportune places. What's the most amazing about BB's playing to me is his ability to flow with the band, not overpower it. I find that such a capability is a large part of the allure of his music, and is far too rare for my tastes (I'm working on it of course! :P). Technical skill is nice, but it doesn't mean much if you don't know what to do with it. Jeff Beck fits in this group as well, to me. His style is more distinct (imo), but no less tasteful. The sort of ability as Jeff and BB have, I think, is as much innate as acquired, you need to be subtle, yet powerful. But to me it is the most desirable trait a guitarist (or any musician) can have. (Definitely worth a link, a fantastic example) "I always told my students that one of the main things they need to learn how to do is sing/say what they are trying to play in their head or out loud" - Andy I agree wholeheartedly with Andy here, it has been emphasized to me more times than I care to count. It allows you to mull over the sound, how it fits in the groove of the song. I often find myself humming my own thoughts over any given song. You get the chance to feel it with the song, instead of playing over it. It's the sort of conscious thought that can be incredibly beneficial to your improvisations, songwriting, and musicianship as a whole. Just my thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djroge1 Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I agree completely. In fact that is how Gilmour creates a lot of his solos. He sings/scating them first and then puts a few of them on tape and mixes and matches. You can hear him doing this when he is playing the solo in Wish You Were Here. I always told my students that one of the main things they need to learn how to do is sing/say what they are trying to play in their head or out loud. If you can't hear what your playing in your mind then your fingers are just going through the motions. In other words you are not playing what your hearing in your head, you are hearing what you are playing with your fingers. Big difference. Andy Reading your reply, Andy it brought to mind those guitarist who just seem to channel pure emotion and music. SRV comes to mind. I don't know if guys like Stevie actually heard it in his head first or just simply played on auto pilot. Perhaps the time between what was in his head and what came out of his fingers were intertwined in some fashion? Just a thought. DjR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Californiaman Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 IMO, good guitar solo phrasing comes from being a to sing a melody in ones head and have it transfer down to the fingers. I'm in full agreement with this Duane. If you can say it you can play it. And that makes for great phrasing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturn Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share Posted August 5, 2011 Some good replies. I wanted to elaborate more in my OP, but my wife was hounding me to get off the computer and do something useful (like go to work) Although they are surely related, I think there is a slight distiction between "playing with feeling" and phrasing. I mean, SRV played with a lot of feeling, but I think that was mainly due to his gut wrenching bends, vibrato and dynamics. His musical phrases were mostly standard blues lines. I'm not saying he couldn't phrase some nice solos, but that was not what he's known for. As someone else noted, someone like BB King derives all his "feeling" from delicate phrasing and well placed, melodic lines. Yea, he also has great vibrato too B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbreslauer Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 i'm reading a book about writing lyrics, cause frankly i find that i suck at it. :) There is an exercise in there, one of objective writing: the idea is to "show" through words rather than just "tell." To use all your senses, when describing what you see and what you're thinking as you see it. it's an interesting concept, and you realize that simply talking FAST, or A LOT, is not the same as "saying something." Of course, this does not mean that speed or quantity cannot say anything either... it all comes down to having something to say in the first place. This in a way applies to playing too, just in a different language, so to speak. very interesting thread! Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This_Dying_Soul Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Santana or Ace Frehley here yet. Santana is the king of phrasing in my opinion. He seems to be one of those guys with chops that holds back on a lot of what he can do in favor of playing a melody but is capable of letting it rip at any moment. Ace is another great example in my opinion because he's not known for chops as much as being able to create singable, memorable solos that are instantly identifiable (anybody familiar with Kiss could pick you a Frehley era song and name it by hearing the solo by itself). If you really break down Ace's musical vocabulary it's very small compared to someone like Randy Rhodes or Steve Vai or Satriani (all very good examples of someone with chops and phrasing IMHO); but when the man plays he's instantly recognizable and somehow in spite of his limited vocabulary he manages to make each solo stand out from the others. Phrasing is just as much about knowing many different ways to play the same licks as it is about knowing a lot of different licks. It's not just about knowing what notes to play but how to play them. I think this is also something that a lot of people who trash talk Slash are missing the point of. He may not have the most extensive vocabulary compared to others and he may not have the chops of some of his peers, but he manages to create solos that are singable melodies and stand on their own. You can name the song just by hearing the solo; while at the same time having a very distinct sound that is undeniably his. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookieman15061 Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I know any solo I play is basically a melody I have in my head that kind of fits the chord structure that I'm playing. Simple can be effective, like in this jazzy blues backing track. The tendency in soloing for me is to cram notes and rush things so restraint is a good thing for me. Here is a vid of what I'm talking about. It's been posted before. Please be kind to this guitar hack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I agree with the 'if you can say it you can play it' theory in one respect, in that a good melody is usually the back bone of a good piece of music, but there are exceptions where the melody is too fast to sing yet is still memorable! From up tempo Irish folk songs to Bach to Django, these examples can be very melodic but 'unsingably' (he he made up word) fast Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHO Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 For me personally, and for what I think of as "phrasing", there's one guy that stands far above anyone else. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB6zg05CxYg To my ears, that's as good as it gets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I dig it Cook!!!! It has a I Want You (She's So Heavy) feel to it... Though I feel I have good phrasing, and I can come up with above average solo's.... I have to fight my ego to stay within myself and the context of a song Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I know it's not guitar, but here is some impossible to sing piano that is emotional, fast and also technically hard to play - IMHO, to be expressive and emotional in music needs the options of all manner of speeds to attain the goal of being expressive http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBA-38mzabs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Reading your reply, Andy it brought to mind those guitarist who just seem to channel pure emotion and music. SRV comes to mind. I don't know if guys like Stevie actually heard it in his head first or just simply played on auto pilot. Perhaps the time between what was in his head and what came out of his fingers were intertwined in some fashion? Just a thought. DjR Agreed I think there is also a "middle" space especially in improv. As far as playing and getting a feel for someones phrasing I believe you have to be able to hear it in your head to get it right. I guess I would compare it to a painting of the Mona Lisa that is done by someone that can really picture in their mind what it looks like and paint it compared to the result of someone doing it as a paint by numbers. They will both look like the Mona Lisa in some way but I guarantee that the person that can paint it from their mind's eye will have a lot more natural and blended look. Hope that makes sense... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Californiaman Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Sure they will. I've always believed in "If you can say it you can play it." Work over a guitar neck long enough and you'll know the right type of seasoning for what ever phrase you come up with. Slide a half step to a lead in, hit some double stops or the right type of bend, it all goes together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 My jazz teacher always told me that it's not the notes that you play that are important, it's the ones that you don't play that are important. Of course, being the little piano demon that I was back then, I never listened to that and I played my solos with no phrasing whatsoever. My piano technique is all but gone, but I've matured in my thinking about phrasing. I always like to think that you are creating sentences with a pause at the periods. The paragraph is a coherent piece that has an entrance and an exit. Playing a good solo is like writing a nice poem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxson50 Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 IMHO There is soloing, then there is improvisation...How many memorable solos can you name? Probably too many to count, from Bill Hailey through today every great hit has a great solo in it that (no pun intended) hits a chord in most listeners. Reelin in the Years, Black Magic Woman, Layla, Sweet Melissa just to name few. Those solos may have been a improvisation at one time, but by the time the artist is in the studio that thread of a improvisational expression has become a well rehearsed solo...a polished gem, cut from raw ore, embellished and memorized so well the audience knows it as well as the artist who created it... If solo is a raw gem, improvisation is mining... in hours of "jamming" or improv a artist may find a few "riff's" or solos they keep and polish and keep in a song.. It's style, dynamics and fine nuances such as vibrato, attack & phrasing that makes a solo artist stand out, speed can surely be a part of dynamics but is not a requirement..IMO speed is more impressive to other musicians then to listeners how may not play a instrument or have any music training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookieman15061 Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 IMHO There is soloing, then there is improvisation...How many memorable solos can you name? Probably too many to count, from Bill Hailey through today every great hit has a great solo in it that (no pun intended) hits a chord in most listeners. Reelin in the Years, Black Magic Woman, Layla, Sweet Melissa just to name few. Those solos may have been a improvisation at one time, but by the time the artist is in the studio that thread of a improvisational expression has become a well rehearsed solo...a polished gem, cut from raw ore, embellished and memorized so well the audience knows it as well as the artist who created it... If solo is a raw gem, improvisation is mining... in hours of "jamming" or improv a artist may find a few "riff's" or solos they keep and polish and keep in a song.. It's style, dynamics and fine nuances such as vibrato, attack & phrasing that makes a solo artist stand out, speed can surely be a part of dynamics but is not a requirement..IMO speed is more impressive to other musicians then to listeners how may not play a instrument or have any music training. Agreed Jax. My son has been recording some new material and I've been laying down some guitar on a few of them. Originally he gave me the rough tracks so I could get a feel for the songs and I listened to the tracks pretty much non stop for 2 days. I then get the guitar out and noodle around a bit until I come up with a riff that will eventually become the "signature" guitar part of the song or the hook. once fully developed it's played the exact same way throughout the song. Of course this is different from the solo section which is a little more freestyle but fleshed out and well rehearsed over a period of time. That's how I approach it anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 My jazz teacher always told me that it's not the notes that you play that are important, it's the ones that you don't play that are important. Of course, being the little piano demon that I was back then, I never listened to that and I played my solos with no phrasing whatsoever. My piano technique is all but gone, but I've matured in my thinking about phrasing. I always like to think that you are creating sentences with a pause at the periods. The paragraph is a coherent piece that has an entrance and an exit. Playing a good solo is like writing a nice poem. that is interesting and very topical with a few teenage guys I teach on the guitar... The other week, a few pupils joined my friend on stage at our open mic, my friend played acoustic rhythm guitar and sang and the three leads were meant to provide tasteful fills and a few solos. Well it was fun and they played well, but musically it was a bit of a disaster. They all played over each other and didn't bounce off one another. There were often times where there were three completely over the top solos were going on. It was quite comical though, hearing my friend doing a laid back acoustic version of Clapton's Cocaine and then having Bill and Ted type lead all over it LOL. On a serious note since then I have really tried to talk about question and answer and how it is musically polite to accompany someone when it is their solo and not to then do a solo at the same time. Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookieman15061 Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 that is interesting and very topical with a few teenage guys I teach on the guitar... The other week, a few pupils joined my friend on stage at our open mic, my friend played acoustic rhythm guitar and sang and the three leads were meant to provide tasteful fills and a few solos. Well it was fun and they played well, but musically it was a bit of a disaster. They all played over each other and didn't bounce off one another. There were often times where there were three completely over the top solos were going on. It was quite comical though, hearing my friend doing a laid back acoustic version of Clapton's Cocaine and then having Bill and Ted type lead all over it LOL. On a serious note since then I have really tried to talk about question and answer and how it is musically polite to accompany someone when it is their solo and not to then do a solo at the same time. Matt Ahh yes, Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturn Posted August 6, 2011 Author Share Posted August 6, 2011 I've always looked at "lead guitar" more like "follow guitar". A good solo follows along with the chords being played behind it. Certain notes and phrases are emphasized at just the right point as the chords are changing. Some great examples of these type solos are: "One Of These Nights" by The Eagles, "I'm Gonna Crawl" by Led Zep and "Lonely is the Word" by Black Sabbath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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