blindboygrunt Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 if people are happy then theres no problem. and like has been said , do a blindfold test ... there aint no way anyone would know. what however would bother me slightly is the attitude behind this sort of goings on . i mean , my god there arent many things who's charm is its connection to the past and tradition than a gibson acoustic guitar . they work perfectly well , tried and tested for decades so leave it alone. come up with a new design or model and specify the laminate boards or two peice bridges let the customer decide what he/ she wants . i'm all for innovation and it might be the best idea since sliced bread , but dont sneak it in on peoples guitars without telling them just reeks of some little git blowing about whatever amount of $'s savings he can make Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Same thing with my HB TV finished November 2011.. so strictly speaking, still Ren's era. If you look closely from end pin to bridge you can also see the two piece wood. Does not bother me as this guitar sounds fantastic. I raised the question of what rosewood is being used now by Gibson a while back.... from the above link concerning laminated fingerboards.. I am assuming my HB has this also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 if people are happy then theres no problem. and like has been said , do a blindfold test ... there aint no way anyone would know. what however would bother me slightly is the attitude behind this sort of goings on . i mean , my god there arent many things who's charm is its connection to the past and tradition than a gibson acoustic guitar . they work perfectly well , tried and tested for decades so leave it alone. come up with a new design or model and specify the laminate boards or two peice bridges let the customer decide what he/ she wants . i'm all for innovation and it might be the best idea since sliced bread , but dont sneak it in on peoples guitars without telling them just reeks of some little git blowing about whatever amount of s savings he can make Heard - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrorod Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 The only reason to do this would be to use wood pieces that would otherwise be thrown away. It's an extra step to glue two thin pieces together like this to make a thicker piece. It makes no sense at all to me. I agree with Nick on this. they are most likely utilising cut-offs and wood that would be too thin otherwise. The process of laminating wood has gone on for years in guitar building. FX-solid body Telecasters or Les Paul bodies. It is just a sign of the times when it creeps into more noticeable areas such as Gibson acoustic bridges. Gibson was possibly shipped a load of rosewood that was not up to thickness specs for fingerboards and they are 'making do' with the situation. For all we know they are laminating the neck and tail blocks now. That would be a less obvious part. Get out the flashlights and mirrors..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustystrings Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 If memory serves, didn't the latest round of invasive Federal agents come down upon Gibson because some Indian rosewood fingerboards they imported turned out to be a millimeter or so too thick, and therefore considered unfinished lumber instead of fingerboard blanks? This might be in response to that - "okay, Federales, this wood is WAY within the specified thicknesses, so go roll a hoop." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Same thing with my HB TV finished November 2011.. so strictly speaking, still Ren's era. If you look closely from end pin to bridge you can also see the two piece wood. Does not bother me as this guitar sounds fantastic. I raised the question of what rosewood is being used now by Gibson a while back.... from the above link concerning laminated fingerboards.. I am assuming my HB has this also. The interesting thing here is that although your bridge is laminated from two thinner pieces, they are from the same rosewood board. The grain patterns of the two pieces are identical, but you can clearly see that they are slightly offset from each other. This is a significant amount of extra work to go to. This has to be related to Gibson's wood acquisition issues. The same goes for the laminated fretboards. While it may make absolutely no difference sonically, it is a signficant change in the way the guitars are built. I don't get it. It would really be nice to get a straight answer out of Gibson on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buc McMaster Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 It seems we certainly have photographic and eyewitness evidence that these bridges are in fact laminated, an apparently new development in Gibson construction techniques. While there is no structural sacrifice it certainly looks odd and amounts to a spec change for Montana guitars that kind of snuck up on us buyers. I could better understand such "innovations" on some of the lower end models but am taken aback at their use on these TV versions of some historic instruments. Neither of my two have this feature, and without offense to any instrument or owner, a laminated bridge would be a deal breaker for me. It's just visually wrong to my eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 . Thanks to the owners that posted pics. Sure does look like laminated wood on some of these to me. To DuluthDan - thanks for the additional info. I'm looking forward to what Jeremy has to say on this interesting topic. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I have a feeling we're going to start rummaging through our old parts boxes, pulling out those old one-piece Gibson bridges and selling them for a premium on ebay. I can see the new selling point here: "vintage one-piece rosewood bridge with non adjustable saddle. Get rid of that tone-killing laminated saddle". First it was adjustable saddles, now it's laminated bridges. What won't they think of next? Seriously, it's hard to imagine this makes any difference tone-wise, but it is definitely a change in specification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Adidirondack spruce is generally wider grained than Sitka or other spruces; mine is the same. Mine has a bit of bear claw in it too but only when the light hits it right. It's my understanding that an Adidirondack top is slower to open up than others as well, boding well for the future. I sure love the crisp attack of the sound, wherever it comes from! Open grain ain't a big deal -what theoretically really counts is that you have at least 10 to 14 grains per square inch with red spruce. In the end though most of us would not be able to hear any difference between a guitar with a top with 12 grains per square inch and one with 20. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Methinks the issues that Gibson has had with imported woods recently, may have caused these types of changes to 'spec'. Hmmmmm......laminate fingerboards too. http://www2.gibson.com/Support/FAQ-Tonewoods.aspx For those that didn't follow the link Bobby posted, here's the info it leads to - Will Indian rosewood ever be used by Gibson again? Yes, and it is actually being used now. At this time, Gibson is not using traditional Indian rosewood fingerboard blanks. The Gibson R&D team engineered a new process that is sonically virtually indistinguishable by layering two thinner pieces of Indian rosewood together with the grain of one in reverse direction of the other. Thanks Bobby - this is something that escaped me until this thread and your post. Looks like their doing it with bridge blanks too. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 So this must be the same reason that at least some of the Gibson electrics are now coming with what they call a baked maple fretboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 . Yes. The info posted on the page linked to by Bobby has a fair amount of information on Gibson's new strategies and products in the face of their Lacey Act woes. An interesting read to say the least. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 For those that didn't follow the link Bobby posted, here's the info it leads to - Will Indian rosewood ever be used by Gibson again? Yes, and it is actually being used now. At this time, Gibson is not using traditional Indian rosewood fingerboard blanks. The Gibson R&D team engineered a new process that is sonically virtually indistinguishable by layering two thinner pieces of Indian rosewood together with the grain of one in reverse direction of the other. Thanks Bobby - this is something that escaped me until this thread and your post. Looks like their doing it with bridge blanks too. . "New process that is sonically virtually indistinguishable.....". Sorry, but this seems to me to be shorthand spin for making the most of a bad situation. That "virtually indistinguishable" is a glaring red flag in my book. They almost certainly have a shortage of rosewood of the proper thickness or quality to make fretboards and bridges of a single thickness of wood. Sometimes, you will laminate a flawless veneer over a sub-prime base to utilize wood that you would otherwise not use because of obvious flaws. This is done in furniture making and boatbuilding all the time, so maybe this is just the thin end of the wedge when it comes to guitars. There is no way this is saving money unless they just can't get their hands on the right material at the right price for one reason or another. Remember laminated guitar sides (and backs) in the 70's? It wasn't because it made for a better guitars sonically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanCarlosVejar Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Norlin II ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buc McMaster Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Indeed, Nick. We may be witnessing the end of traditional guitar construction techniques/materials. We knew it was coming......not all things in this world are sustainable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 It's an interesting topic for sure, the Norlin II might be taking it a bit far so quickly ;) To me this reeks of 'box ticking' in compliance with a fairly ridiculous pedantic implementations of the law, the longer term view has always been that one day it mightn't be so easy/available to build traditionally in larger numbers, perhaps this is the beginning of such things, arguing over the politics behind it by comparison to solid wood imports, which thus far have no such problems, only further demonstrates the domestic policy is a hindrance to its own market. Within the thread we've seen a few owners already who seem to be rather happy with their models despite this change, arguably the process may make the bridges structurally stronger, at this point it seems to be down to aesthetics, the inevitable Ren connection comes up in threads like this and I'm sure someone will ponder that he left because some traditional senses were compromised in favour of legal compliance, but we'll likely never know. Perhaps he had a large contribution to the change. As I see it, this board is a decent user base sampling, there are many age groups, tastes, geographical locations all taking part in here, while I can get behind the aesthetic considerations of historical models carrying these new bridge designs if it's impossible to pick them out soinically it needn't be detrimental. We'll see as time passes, to instantly declare it as a 'bogey man' and Norlin-esque might be falling victim to internet scaremongering amongst ourselves. Naturally Ren-era owners would like to see the values of Ren-era models go up for one reason or another but if blind tests can't clearly identify it, is it really an issue.... (cosmetics aside) Although, I'm sure I'll see many posts saying "I bet his tone would have been a bit better if he had a single piece bridge on that guitar" soon enough. I think I'll need convincing on this one..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 If you recall what Gibson was accused of on the second raid was not importing illegal wood but importing unfinished planks or something that was a violation of Indian law. Importing laminate, however, does not appear to be illegal. So this may be the only way Gibson can import Indian Rosewood. If it is a good quality laminate - meaning several even layers of the same wood glued together - it ain't gonna be an issue other that it will offend the purists out there. Then again, to agree with ParlourMan, you best hold on to your guitars fellows. Knowing us, we will soon be longing for those days when Gibsons came with solid wood bridges and preparing ourselves to pay a premium for those guitars that have them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipss36 Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 10 to 14???? how about 7 ???###$%%$ next my special bridge.... Open grain ain't a big deal -what theoretically really counts is that you have at least 10 to 14 grains per square inch with red spruce. In the end though most of us would not be able to hear any difference between a guitar with a top with 12 grains per square inch and one with 20. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 10 to 14???? how about 7 ???###$%%$ next my special bridge.... I rather like that.... Nice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 . Chips - One thing about adi tops is they're pretty easy to spot in comparison to the tight grained sitka tops. Your top looked normal to me in the wider shot you had up. There will be areas where the grain is closer together and other areas where the grain widens a bit. The most important thing is your opinion of the guitar - reading your OP it sure seemed like you were pleased with it. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 10 to 14???? how about 7 ???###$%%$ next my special bridge.... I've seen a lot of Adirondack tops on Gibsons from the 30's with growth ring spacing this wide, so it wouldn't bother me one bit. I think it's just the nature of the individual tree. I fact, it's one of the ways you can visually differentiate between Sitka and Adirondack when you are analyzing vintage guitars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 If I can remember back to Woodworking 101 - in some applications, laminates outperform solid wood. I'm not checking my 20100H'bird TV to see if the bridge is two pieces, nor if there is a millimeter gap anywhere as reported in another J45TV thread recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Personally I stopped worrying about tonewoods and such stuff years ago. If I find a guitar I like and can afford I come up with some rationalization that will allow me to buy it I snag it. If I want it and can't afford it I go home depressed but find solace in those guitars already living with me. Not having a whole lot of expendable cash it happens alot. Now if I was laying out $10K for a custom built guitar I probably would care alot. What I do know about wood comes from guys who build instruments and those who more than likely just have way too much time on their hands. According to theory, the best top wood will have an even grain with at least 14 or 15 grains per square inch. Gotta say though based on the number of old guitars I have played and owned, I have seen more than a few Adi tops on something like a pre-War Martin D-18 that would not pass muster with a top notch custom builder today. So how the heck these guitars sounded so good is beyond me. Go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 If I can remember back to Woodworking 101 - in some applications, laminates outperform solid wood. I'm not checking my 20100H'bird TV to see if the bridge is two pieces, nor if there is a millimeter gap anywhere as reported in another J45TV thread recently. Laminated wood can out-perform solid wood when it comes to both stiffness and strength in some applications. Engineered wood beams using softwoods which contain numerous flaws such as knots are one example. Likewise, grain runout on a solid wood (non-laminated) beam can greatly affect strength. This is one reason why Honduras mahogany is the traditional wood for guitar necks. Even today (or at least until a few years ago, when I was still building boats), you can buy big Honduras mahogany planks with absolutely straight grain and virtually no flaws. It's one of the great characteristics of the "genuine" mahogany tree. The last thing you want in a guitar neck, which is a pure compression member, is grain running in strange directions. If and when flawless mahogany becomes unavailable, laminated necks will once again be the preferred construction method, just as you see with maple necks. It happened during the wood shortages of WWII, and it will happen again. On a fretboard or bridge, however, it's hard to imagine that rosewood is laminated for structural reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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