Mojorule Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Could things like this be the reason Ferguson dematerialized. The captain simply left the bridge - Tres drole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipss36 Posted March 8, 2012 Author Share Posted March 8, 2012 tell ya what there bob r you pay for my guitar....and then you can tell me how I should act and what I should and should not write about in an open forum... belive me I have had many cars and bikes in my day...Product Features are what they are.....fluff is something different... patronizing someone you know nothing about is pretty funny....and of all things to bring up cars....if you only knew. why do I continue this? to warn others, to effect a change, that a spec sheet be a spec sheet....and I why my bridge is different. gibson has not said a word.... or like I said before and as you wish me too...... just sweep it all under the rug....right? sorry but i just happen to have a $3200 dog in this fight....lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipss36 Posted March 8, 2012 Author Share Posted March 8, 2012 I suppose what has gotten me second guessing here is simply this, I went with tv for the top and fretboard wood upgrades over the plain j45, I felt it was worth the extra money. There are areas of the top not even 7 band per inch, and the grain tightens up at the outer edges. Visually it looks bad. Then there is the 2 pc bridge, add it all up it does not look like other J45 tv,s I have seen, nor in my mind does it match what gibson is saying on there own web page... what info is posted on here about Indian rosewood use laminates said nothing about Madagascar... when I buy a harley lets say, I know the bike will match the spec sheet, regardless of epa or what ever laws are in place, and if the motor is chopped in half and re-welded, I don’t want to hear about how strong the weld is.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morkolo Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 tell ya what there bob r you pay for my guitar....and then you can tell me how I should act and what I should and should not write about in an open forum... belive me I have had many cars and bikes in my day...Product Features are what they are.....fluff is something different... patronizing someone you know nothing about is pretty funny....and of all things to bring up cars....if you only knew. why do I continue this? to warn others, to effect a change, that a spec sheet be a spec sheet....and I why my bridge is different. gibson has not said a word.... or like I said before and as you wish me too...... just sweep it all under the rug....right? sorry but i just happen to have a $3200 dog in this fight....lol I have to say thanks for warning others like myself because I probably would not have even looked to see if the bridge on a Gibson was laminated.. and poorly at that (the giveaway for me is you can see the where the glue seeped out between the laminates and stained the rosewood). In my opinion if a customer wanted to buy a guitar with laminated woods under the Gibson banner they would have saved $2600+ and bought an Epiphone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rar Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 that a spec sheet be a spec sheet....and I why my bridge is different. Your bridge is absolutely 100% consistent with the spec you quoted. just sweep it all under the rug....right? Nobody has suggested that. Feel free to endlessly complain here rather than trying to actually get an answer from Gibson by calling them or the dealer, if that makes you feel better. :) Now, you did do us all a service by pointing out that this was being done. Nobody had noticed to this point (which I think says something about how big a deal it actually is, but that's just me). However, you accomplished that objective many posts ago. Trust me, we won't forget. Plus, you go on and on about how Gibson "owes you an explanation". I am mystified as to what Gibson could possibly tell you that would make a difference to you. The bridge is what it is. Is there something Gibson could say that would make you happy with the bridge? (If they said it made the bridge stronger, without affecting the tone, would you be happy? If they said it was to conserve wood, would you be happy?) If you're not going to change your mind about the bridge being "lower quality", why do you care about why they did it? sorry but i just happen to have a $3200 dog in this fight.... Not really. You have the option of withdrawing from the fight and having your stake returned. I didn't tell you to do that, I just recommended it. -- Bob R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buc McMaster Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Sound wise I feel it sounds just like I thought it would..... The top is very open grained, looks like this tree was growing pretty fast, is this the way red spruce grows? Or did I just not get a tight grained top? Either way I am good it sounds great and will be even better in a few years I am sure. The bridge surprised me in that it was made of 2 pieces of wood, but then again its fitting for this guitar and its history...a tip of the hat to its beginnings. I have looked this guitar over with a fine tooth comb and find no flaws....... gonna take awhile to get to using a guitar of this caliber down Things that make you go hmmm. Yesterday it was "I am good" with the two-piece bridge and the wide-grained top, even observing that you had "looked this guitar over with a fine tooth comb and find no flaws." It's still the same guitar today that it was yesterday......still "sounds just like" you thought it would.......yes? What happened? Did you let the observations of the forum turn your head? Are you having second thoughts about the $3200? Not trying to twist you up, but overnight you went from being sweet on the guitar to having a bad taste in your mouth for all things Gibson and this guitar in particular. Don't let our ramblings change your mind, please, but I fear the die is cast on this one. If you had not posted the photos would the bridge or the top be an issue for you at all? From you original post I think not. I for one am sorry we rained on your parade.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipss36 Posted March 8, 2012 Author Share Posted March 8, 2012 ohh I am just getting started bob...if you don't care for my post....don't read it...how about that...just a suggestion this just keeps getting better the fretboard is a laminate as well.....wow is all i can say....best look very close at yours... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry K Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I agree with Bob. If you have any hesitation about the instrument and it is still returnable, send it back and get what you want. By the way the wide grain is characteristic of adirondack and looks great to me. I can't quite shake the feeling that laminate bridges and fretboards are a step down in quality from solid wood, though I suppose I could be proved wrong on that. Some of the greatest Gibson acoustics, made during wartime, had various materials substitutions and sometimes even laminated backs or sides. So if the guitar sounds good, it sounds good and who cares about two-piece/one-piece. Still, I hope they figure out sources for rosewood and ebony thick enough to make these parts without lamination. P.S. Bob is a cool dude and really knows his Gibsons. He is giving you good advice: just return it. We've all done that with a few guitars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morkolo Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I can't quite shake the feeling that laminate bridges and fretboards are a step down in quality from solid wood, though I suppose I could be proved wrong on that. Yep sounds more like a Tradetang knockoff horror story than a $3200 Gibson premium quality guitar issue to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 ohh I am just getting started bob...if you don't care for my post....don't read it...how about that...just a suggestion this just keeps getting better the fretboard is a laminate as well.....wow is all i can say....best look very close at yours... Yep, that is the laminated fretboard. I have to admit that both of these things bother me, but only because I am not a fan of change for the sake of change. I don't think they make it a lesser guitar, and I seriously doubt that they have any negative impact on sound quality or longevity. They are just different from what we are used to from Gibson, and they have caught us all off-guard. I think there is an inherent conservatism among us here that is resistant to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
levidale Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Here's mine just got it last week, zzsounds j45 tv ,don't see the 2 piece bridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
levidale Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I don't see it on mine, I've looked all over my 45's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morkolo Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Yep, that is the laminated fretboard. I have to admit that both of these things bother me, but only because I am not a fan of change for the sake of change. I don't think they make it a lesser guitar, and I seriously doubt that they have any negative impact on sound quality or longevity. They are just different from what we are used to from Gibson, and they have caught us all off-guard. I think there is an inherent conservatism among us here that is resistant to change. I'm in the same boat, only I believe the plywood fretboards and laminate bridges found on these do make these Gibson's lesser guitars for the same reason my Father's old Yamaha LL16 always sounds better than my Yamaha FG750.... solid beats laminate everyday for tone, the fact the Gibson is trying to state the opposite is quite frankly insulting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobby b Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Wow....... With regard to my HB TV and the 2pc bridge, bit of a 'wtf' moment when I first noticed. I s'pose one pc would have been nice, as that is what was expected. But, I have sooooo connected with this guitar. For me, it's tone is nothing short of magical, seriously, I cant get over it. And that, after all, is what matters. The top itself so silky , in the light the entire top looks 3d....stunning. I have let more than a few 'magical' guitars get away from me in the past. The thought of exchanging this guitar, simply because the bridge is 2pcs....would just fill me with dread...... not knowing if the replacement guitar would measure up to this one..........not gonna happen. chipss36, I agree that not receiving the guitar 'to spec' is a bit of a sucker punch from Gibson, it would be interesting to hear any response from them. My advice, let tone and feel guide your decision, which is yours and yours alone to make. Cheers, play and be happy, good luck to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry K Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I have sooooo connected with this guitar. For me, it's tone is nothing short of magical, seriously, I cant get over it. And that, after all, is what matters. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I'm in the same boat, only I believe the plywood fretboards and laminate bridges found on these do make these Gibson's lesser guitars for the same reason my Father's old Yamaha LL16 always sounds better than my Yamaha FG750.... solid beats laminate everyday for tone, the fact the Gibson is trying to state the opposite is quite frankly insulting. This is NOT the same as a "plywood" guitar. You need to understand exactly what it means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 .... I can't quite shake the feeling that laminate bridges and fretboards are a step down in quality from solid wood.... +1 Leaving aside the fine quality of the sound - The model is heavily advertised as a True Vintage - true to the original specs of a vintage J-45. These vintage specs are in part, what the customers are expecting to pay for. There was never a spec for a laminated fretboard or a laminated bridge. IMO, on a model advertised as a "True Vintage", Gibson should have clearly noted these differences in specs regarding the use of laminated wood. I hate to say it, but this smacks of the old bait and switch. And that's what really bothers me about the situation. After Gibson's Lacey Act problems, some of us might have thought specs might go this way. But I would have expected Gibson to be upfront about these kinds of changes and not sneak them in on unsuspecting, uniformed consumers. OTOH, I have seen other manufacturers refer to laminated pieces of the same species as "solid wood". . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morkolo Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 This is NOT the same as a "plywood" guitar. You need to understand exactly what it means. I understand the terminology I used exactly, fretboards and bridges are all part of the tone generating process meaning if you make them out of plywood or laminate it will be detrimental to the sound of the guitar. Plywood and laminate woods ring like soggy paper compared to the grade solid wood that should be on a guitar in this price bracket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipss36 Posted March 8, 2012 Author Share Posted March 8, 2012 What makes plywood plywood? ply·wood/ˈplīˌwo͝od/ Noun: A type of strong thin wooden board consisting of two or more layers glued and pressed together with the direction of the grain alternating. Synonyms: veneer one thing for sure, it was not done on the same level as say Ramirez cedar lines a classical, to improve tone, or Ruck double top ... suppose we will never know, gibson is mute.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 What makes plywood plywood? .... Traditional plywood is made of layers in which the grain runs in alternating perpendicular directions. The main purpose is for strength. Laminated wood in the way we're talking about it here is layered so the grain runs in parallel directions. The main purpose here is for added thickness and stability. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry K Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I wouldn't call this plywood. It's more like the laminated maple neck on a J-200. I wonder if other companies will follow suit. Gibson may only be the first because they lost their stockpile in the raid. I'm all for protecting wood species from over-harvesting but I am not sure who or what the heck is being served by these enforcement actions. Indian rosewood isn't endangered and the Indian government seems uninterested in enforcing the rule on their books... (scratches head) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibson101 Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Things that make you go hmmm. Yesterday it was "I am good" with the two-piece bridge and the wide-grained top, even observing that you had "looked this guitar over with a fine tooth comb and find no flaws." It's still the same guitar today that it was yesterday......still "sounds just like" you thought it would.......yes? What happened? Did you let the observations of the forum turn your head? Are you having second thoughts about the $3200? Not trying to twist you up, but overnight you went from being sweet on the guitar to having a bad taste in your mouth for all things Gibson and this guitar in particular. Don't let our ramblings change your mind, please, but I fear the die is cast on this one. If you had not posted the photos would the bridge or the top be an issue for you at all? From you original post I think not. I for one am sorry we rained on your parade.......... I'm sure he'd be glad to swap TV's with ya Buck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibson101 Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 +1 Leaving aside the fine quality of the sound - The model is heavily advertised as a True Vintage - true to the original specs of a vintage J-45. These vintage specs are in part, what the customers are expecting to pay for. There was never a spec for a laminated fretboard or a laminated bridge. IMO, on a model advertised as a "True Vintage", Gibson should have clearly noted these differences in specs regarding the use of laminated wood. I hate to say it, but this smacks of the old bait and switch. And that's what really bothers me about the situation. After Gibson's Lacey Act problems, some of us might have thought specs might go this way. But I would have expected Gibson to be upfront about these kinds of changes and not sneak them in on unsuspecting, uniformed consumers. OTOH, I have seen other manufacturers refer to laminated pieces of the same species as "solid wood". . Well said I believe this is the heart of this particular issue. It wouldn't have taken us all by such a surprise if this where a modern classic, the fact that this is happening on a J-45 TV is a bit disconcerting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 tell ya what there bob r you pay for my guitar....and then you can tell me how I should act and what I should and should not write about in an open forum... belive me I have had many cars and bikes in my day...Product Features are what they are.....fluff is something different... patronizing someone you know nothing about is pretty funny....and of all things to bring up cars....if you only knew. why do I continue this? to warn others, to effect a change, that a spec sheet be a spec sheet....and I why my bridge is different. gibson has not said a word.... or like I said before and as you wish me too...... just sweep it all under the rug....right? sorry but i just happen to have a $3200 dog in this fight....lol It's normally pretty friendly in here mate, might need to tone down the rage a little... it's not any of the other poster's faults.... to use your own words, if you don't like a response don't read it. Under the radar changes are bound to irk a little, Gibson would be doing itself a favour to disclose these, explain them even, wax lyrical about them if they felt inclined to do so. You seem to be still within the return period, so return it, get yourself a used one from 2010/2011, sorted.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 This post is starting to p!ss me off. chipss36 As a few ppl have mentioned your OP stated you where very happy with this guitar, then you post on here about the bridge and get some negative feedback and all of a sudden the guitar is crap. I didn't even notice my bridge was 2 piece until you pointed it out... so thanks for that I GUESS You are in your rights to not be happy... so return the guitar... it's bloody simple. The reason I'm peed off is lots of people here are now claiming these are inferior instruments... well BULLSHIT... my HB TV with 2 piece bridge and I'm assuming 2 peice FB is THE most sweet sounding, beautiful guitars I have had the pleasure to own or play. Sorry but reading some of the comments here have made me feel bad about my guitar.. and thats the power of this forum. If the post ended where is could have with some insight being shed on this and some decent comments being made.. then all good and well. I never plan on selling my HB but if I ever had to the comments on forums like this just knocked a **** load of resale value off. I am not happy about my bridge or finger board now. !!!!!!!! so I'm gonna stop reading this and play my feckin guitar ... cos it still sounds feckin lovely to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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