Del Nilppeznaf Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 It seems we certainly have photographic and eyewitness evidence that these bridges are in fact laminated, an apparently new development in Gibson construction techniques. While there is no structural sacrifice it certainly looks odd and amounts to a spec change for Montana guitars that kind of snuck up on us buyers. I could better understand such "innovations" on some of the lower end models but am taken aback at their use on these TV versions of some historic instruments. Neither of my two have this feature, and without offense to any instrument or owner, a laminated bridge would be a deal breaker for me. It's just visually wrong to my eye. Before this thread started I had not even noticed my bridge was two piece. As J45nick points out the bridge is cut from the same piece of wood and the grain is the same. I have posted pics here of my HB TV previously and no one else noticed Even my avatar is a close up of bridge lol of course now we will all be looking very closely at new Gibsons and their bridges. Honestly, if I could have the guitar with a solid bridge I would... but no way am I changing this guitar. She is an absolute beautiful instrument.. and I'll forget all about the bridge in a day or two Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 .... Honestly, if I could have the guitar with a solid bridge I would... but no way am I changing this guitar. She is an absolute beautiful instrument.. and I'll forget all about the bridge in a day or two I'm kind of the same opinion - if the instrument is everything I want in sound/tone and playability, a laminated bridge or fretboard isn't going to set me reeling. Not really a concern in that way. It's just interesting and a bit head scratching that a lot of us are just now coming to this realization that a shift has occurred in wood specs. I can't believe I missed this. BTW, that's a beautiful 'Bird. . B) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Is a laminated fretboard an easy spot? I'm coming up on 3wks separated from my new HB Pro...and a quick look at the bridge is 1st on the list upon returning. Interesting thread. The only way you will see it is by carefully inspecting the exposed side of the fretboard. You won't see it at all on a bound fretboard. Even on an exposed edge, it will not necessarily be easy to spot. What you would look for is a glue line or a visual discontinuity in the grain pattern. On the plus side, it may make it easier 40 years from now to repair fretboard divots. You pull out a couple of frets, chisel down to the glue line, and glue on a new fretboard top laminate in the offending positions. I honestly don't think it matters, but it is annoying in principle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 for the first time since i joined this wonderful forum i'm a bit annoyed . two piece ...12 piece bridge ... laminated fretboards ..... satin cases ..... tin foil tuners ... FINE!!! but tell us!! someone help me illiterate what i'm tryin to say :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipss36 Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 Ill try … I have such mixed feeling about this guitar, it plays great, but when they cut corners, they seemed to cut every one on my guitar here, I paid a premium for a “Top-grade Adirondack top”??? and “highest grade rosewood on earth, which is personally inspected and qualified by Gibson’s team of skilled experts before it enters the Gibson factories.” these are qoutes...from the products pages.... this is not what I got... a two peace bridge, is that highest grade rosewood on earth????? no it is not, and I was lied to. my top is simply no top grade.... I feel for the dude overseas with a fretboard not even glued down..... $3200????? it will be my last gibson. Funny on one at gibson has chimed in here ...they got some splainin to do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Ill try … I have such mixed feeling about this guitar, it plays great, but when they cut corners, they seemed to cut every one on my guitar here, I paid a premium for a “Top-grade Adirondack top”??? and “highest grade rosewood on earth, which is personally inspected and qualified by Gibson’s team of skilled experts before it enters the Gibson factories.” these are qoutes...from the products pages.... this is not what I got... a two peace bridge, is that highest grade rosewood on earth????? no it is not, and I was lied to. my top is simply no top grade.... .... $3200????? it will be my last gibson. Funny on one at gibson has chimed in here ...they got some splainin to do... About Gibson chiming in - I saw Jeremy on for a while this morning, but for some reason he chose not to comment. I think your top is fine. Here's an old quote that I agree with: "Judging by grain count density is irrelevant compared to judging the instrument by the sound. IF judging by grain density alone, as some people do, the traditional ideal is to have close to the same count Lines Per Inch all the way across, and to have that count be between 12 and 20 LPI. Lately there has been a tendency for the public to think that more is better. I don't think so. Another change has been that some of the second growth trees can be very very good, and have counts as low as 3 to 5 lines per inch, and usually rising as they go out. Assuming it is a well built guitar and sounds good, the only negative is that you may miss a sale when you decide to part with the instrument because your buyer "knows" too much. I am a sucker for a good piece of spruce no matter how it line-counts. Where Carpathian or Adirondack are concerned, it may be that the lower count pieces have distinct advantages as they tend to weigh less, and are often as stiff as the high count pieces." The laminated bridge is another story and I can understand your concern and disappointment there. Do you have a return option open to you with the seller? . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipss36 Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 I feel for my $3200 I should be able to have gibson explain the disrepancey in what I received and what they advertised, and to do so in a open forum, in front of god an country, or will they sweep this under the rug? the kicker is I send it back it just becomes some one else's problem....why should this flaw? not be taken care of under warranty, and replaced with the highest grade rosewood on earth? I have 30 days, but I would rather keep this one it sounds fine, the bridge looks like ca-ca though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-1854Me Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Ill try … I have such mixed feeling about this guitar, it plays great, but when they cut corners, they seemed to cut every one on my guitar here, I paid a premium for a “Top-grade Adirondack top”??? and “highest grade rosewood on earth, which is personally inspected and qualified by Gibson’s team of skilled experts before it enters the Gibson factories.” these are qoutes...from the products pages.... this is not what I got... a two peace bridge, is that highest grade rosewood on earth????? no it is not, and I was lied to. my top is simply no top grade.... I feel for the dude overseas with a fretboard not even glued down..... $3200????? it will be my last gibson. Funny on one at gibson has chimed in here ...they got some splainin to do... Your original subject line "So my J-45 TV shows up today and I think its a keeper" -- so that's now no longer the case? Weren't you pretty pleased with the sound of the guitar? Now, within a space of 24 hours, you've changed your mind? The open-grained, wider red spruce top is pretty typical of the good stuff that Gibson has been using. Your bridge is what it is; yesterday it was fine, you liked the sound, today it's "your last Gibson"? This is like watching the mobs on The Simpsons -- fickle as squirrels! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipss36 Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 tell what bro, you pay for this I will stop *****ing...ok? I feel for my $3200 I should be able to have gibson explain the disrepancey in what I received and what they advertised, and to do so in a open forum, in front of god an country, or will they sweep this under the rug? the kicker is I send it back it just becomes some one else's problem....why should this flaw? not be taken care of under warranty, and replaced with the highest grade rosewood on earth? I have 30 days, but I would rather keep this one it sounds fine, the bridge looks like ca-ca though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanCarlosVejar Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 tell what bro, you pay for this I will stop *****ing...ok? I understand you totally man as a client you have the right to get what is advertised on the website but I want to point out that gibson says that prices and specs are suject to change without prior notice . and the Marshalls are the people who Raided gibsons factory and left them short of supply. So I guess this is just a "Plan B" if you will , of working with what they have. I totally understand you and you every right to return the guitar . But keep in mind that the Raid affected the company and that is something beyond them . JC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-poland Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Your original subject line "So my J-45 TV shows up today and I think its a keeper" -- so that's now no longer the case? Weren't you pretty pleased with the sound of the guitar? Now, within a space of 24 hours, you've changed your mind? The open-grained, wider red spruce top is pretty typical of the good stuff that Gibson has been using. Your bridge is what it is; yesterday it was fine, you liked the sound, today it's "your last Gibson"? This is like watching the mobs on The Simpsons -- fickle as squirrels! lol lol lol lol [lol] [lol] +10 the wind must have changed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroAussie Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I wouldnt worry about it, just play the Gibson and enjoy it, who cares if the grain is a millimetre or two shorter that it should be ... this is not the AGF folks .. Now, if your J-45 arrived like this, then I dare say you should be somewhat concerned ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roughdiamond Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I wouldnt worry about it, just play the Gibson and enjoy it, who cares if the grain is a millimetre or two shorter that it should be ... this is not the AGF folks .. Now, if your J-45 arrived like this, then I dare say you should be somewhat concerned ... Isn't that the 'True New Vintage Model' coming out soon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 chipps, I feel your pain.... well, not really - it is, as you've pointed out YOUR $3,200. You will make a louder statement if you return your guitar, with a copy of the video you took when unpacking it, to the seller. Send a letter to Gibson as well, and a copy to Martin. Then buy a Martin. They are a union shop, so didn't have the armed Fish and Wildlife folks steal their inventory because of ALLEGEDLY breaking Indian laws. They mass produce thousands of fine instruments, compared to the more hand crafted, human touch at Gibson. So, I'm sure Martin won't cut corners everywhere as you apparently feel Gibson did. You ever meet a fellow on here 'gotomsdos' ? You should get together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buc McMaster Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Boy howdy this thread has got some legs! I must say I am surprised someone from the Gibson service team has not chimed in on this flaming topic.............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-poland Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I wouldnt worry about it, just play the Gibson and enjoy it, who cares if the grain is a millimetre or two shorter that it should be ... this is not the AGF folks .. Now, if your J-45 arrived like this, then I dare say you should be somewhat concerned ... this is an option for$ 2000.oo more! It's called vintage custom early american~ :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rar Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 If memory serves, didn't the latest round of invasive Federal agents come down upon Gibson because some Indian rosewood fingerboards they imported turned out to be a millimeter or so too thick, and therefore considered unfinished lumber instead of fingerboard blanks? Not quite. All fingerboard blanks are thick enough that (according to U.S. interpretation of Indian law) they are illegal to export from India, and therefore are illegal to import into the U.S. under the Lacey Act. Gibson was the first manufacturer to get nailed for this -- this would be the case to establish the legal precedent for large-scale prosecution, if all goes according to plan -- but the panic and search for alternatives is industry-wide. As for the two-piece laminated bridges, I really have no idea what the motivation would be. Greater resistance to splitting caused by saddle torque? Avoiding waste (i.e., same as the argument for bridge wings)? No way it's cheaper. -- Bob R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipss36 Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 thought the raid was on Indian rosewood??? based on Indian law.... but the J-45 TV is Madagascar rosewood bridge and fretboard is it not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mojorule Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 thought the raid was on Indian rosewood??? based on Indian law.... but the J-45 TV is Madagascar rosewood bridge and fretboard is it not? I suspect that the marketing material is even further behind on that one, as Madagascar was out of the picture before the Indian, I believe. Unless they were still using up stocks until recently. Or am I confusing Madgascar ebony with rosewood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 . Yes, two raids - 2011 over Indian rosewood, 2009 over Madagascar ebony. No charges brought from either so far. However, the confiscated wood, guitars, records, computers, etc, have never been returned. In response, and in order to avoid further entanglements with the Feds, Gibson has evidently made some changes - including laminated fingerboard and bridge blanks. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipss36 Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 ill I know is what the guitar feature listed on the web tell me, I had assume they are in fact true...??? "The fingerboard of Gibson’s J-45 True Vintage is constructed from the highest grade Madagascar rosewood on earth, " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mojorule Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 ill I know is what the guitar feature listed on the web tell me, I had assume they are in fact true...??? "The fingerboard of Gibson’s J-45 True Vintage is constructed from the highest grade Madagascar rosewood on earth, " Well yes. That is one line where they really ought to get it right, as it is a very concrete matter. The marketing department have developed a reputation for not really knowing what they are talking about, however. Thus my Woody Guthrie SJ is a painstaking reproduction of WG's personal favourite 1945 SJ, except that it has a modern neck with 'comfort V' profile while all 1940s slopeshoulders had chunky big necks. And assuming that WG's personal favourite SJ was the one he is most often pictured with, then his actually had rosewood sides, while the painstaking reproduction has mahogany. Also, the WGSJ has the same bracing as a current J45 Standard, which is unlikely to be the same as that on a 1945 SJ. All of which matters not a jot to me, as I wanted a hog-back-and-sides SJ with a particular sound and with a neck that is as playable as the 59 LP job on my Howard Roberts Fusion. I got those things, and so am very happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mojorule Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Jeremy, speak up, please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rar Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Ill try … I have such mixed feeling about this guitar, it plays great, but when they cut corners, they seemed to cut every one on my guitar here, I paid a premium for a “Top-grade Adirondack top”??? and “highest grade rosewood on earth, which is personally inspected and qualified by Gibson’s team of skilled experts before it enters the Gibson factories.” these are qoutes...from the products pages.... this is not what I got... a two peace bridge, is that highest grade rosewood on earth????? no it is not, and I was lied to. my top is simply no top grade.... I don't see any inconsistency here. Whether the bridge is laminated or not has nothing to do with the quality of the rosewood used. (As for whether a laminated bridge is lower quality, I have no idea. Maybe it is. But laminated necks are considered higher quality -- they function better, look fancier, and are more expensive to build -- so maybe not.) And wide-grain Adi is absolutely not lower grade. Plenty of people, including Ren Ferguson, are on record as believing that wide-grain Adi tops are, on average, tonally superior to narrow-grain Adi tops. (Martin considers wide-grain tops lower grade because they grade on appearance only, as if they were building furniture. But Gibson has always graded on the basis of both appearance and tone. Plenty of other highly respected builders -- Collings, to cite just one example -- also use wide grain Adi and are not shy about charging a bundle for that option.) Also, you might also want to learn to distinguish between product specifications and fluff churned out by "ad men". If you believe everything you see and hear in car commercials on TV, for example, you are in for a lifetime of disappointing auto purchases.:) Look, we all get that you're not happy. So, just send it back. You don't need to justify doing so. Being unhappy is a perfectly sufficient reason. You made a guitar purchasing decision without playing the guitar first. That's inherently risky, but the generous return policy mitigates the risk. Let the dealer get that guitar in the hands someone who will not be bothered by the "flaws" that bug you so much, someone who will love it for its tone and playability and appearance when not placed under a critical magnifying glass. Everyone will be better off. -- Bob R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Could things like this be the reason Ferguson dematerialized. The captain simply left the bridge - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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