Low watt tube combos vs. State of the Art solid state modeling amps

[kidblast]

Often times on the forum here the debate ensues over amp choices for the house/home studio/parlor etc.

 

The offerings for low wattage tube combos are getting more plentiful as time goes on. So too are the choices for state of the art solid state modeling amps. While no one can argue the tonal qualities of a great small all tube combo, especially some of the ones in the 5 to 15 watt range, it seems many of these amps are indeed one trick ponies.

 

Some are pretty straight ahead, (Volume & Tone) while others are equipped with a more complete EQ stage, and some include a reverb tank, etc. It seems common that to get any measure of versatility out of these small combos, players will consider a modest array of pedals. Overdrive, or compressor along with maybe some sort of a delay pedal to help round things out, you get the idea. Adding cost, and some small amount of clutter that the added pedals/patch cables, power adapters etc, carry along with them. So perhaps what seemed a pretty straight forward purchase, now there's all this "other stuff" that completes the package. Seems the idea of just the amp, a guitar and a cable often times isn't quite enough is it? By the time all is said and done, you could easily be looking at a 500+ to $1k (depending on what is purchased) investment in an amp that will literally sit in the corner of some room of your home, never mind the looks you're gonna get from the Misses when she spies all them patch cables, pedals and wall warts lying around.

 

Enter the solid state modeling combos. We all know who they are. Vox Valvetronix, Line-6 Spider, Fender Mustangs, to name just a few. Recently other players like Peavey has even entered the modeling arena. The street prices are fairly attractive, anywhere from $100/$150, to $300 will score you a small foot print, versatile amp that offers a wide array of quite convincing tones, a veritable music store show case of stomp boxes, and signal processing capabilities, cab simulators on board tuners, and on and on and on. Of course, at some point, it's a bit over kill, 20 different amp models, 99 user presets, all the bells and whistles. Seems over whelming when all you're really looking for is a few usable tones and maybe a little bit of extra stuff to help the vibe along.

 

But all the shenanigans aside, establishing several preset sounds and not really taking into use all the additional features until you're looking for something different or new, seems to me anyway, a fairly obvious alternative to the "tube purist" route. Don't get me wrong guys, I absolutely love the tube amps I've collected over the years. But I have to honestly say, after having also a few of the small combo modeling amps, (the latest being the Mustang III) I wonder why these little ingenious inventions haven't caught on more with the more experienced / advanced players. The tonal qualities of these amps has improved vastly over the last few years.

 

So here's the point of debate. Seems to me, a Valvetronix, or Mustang (etc..) is the perfect "affordable" alternative to seeking out a low wattage tube amp. In that little tiny box you have access to literally hundreds of different sound combinations. Yet, we seem compelled to take the other path, and go for the tube amp, and the added trinkets along with the additional financial details to make that happen.

 

Maybe this topic will never get legs, but it's something that I've wondered about as I read the many thoughtful posts and advice I've seen in this forum on this subject.

 

Rock on, /KB

[rct]

It just depends on what you are doing. If you are looking to nail that super juicy VaiTone, you ain't doing it with a Mustang I guess. If you are in yer studio and making great guitar sounds, you should probably have all kinds of stuff in there. I have trusty tube amps of both flavors Fedner and Marshall, and I have Behringer modeling and other digital speaker emulated stuff in the rack. Use them all for what works, everything else is arguing about the weather really.

 

rct

[Rabs]

Ive always had a Marshall solid state amp (could never justify the cost of a tube).. its a small 10" 45 watter MG 15FX, I paid £90 for it brand new about 15/20 years ago lol and its never let me down.. Im not saying its ever going to be as creamy as a tube amp. But ive seen people moan about the MG series and I have to say I love mine..

 

Then one day about 10 years ago when I got my Classic I decided to get a bigger amp for my new LP and was convinced into buying one of the first Line 6 models.. Man I hated that thing.. You couldnt get a clean tone out of it for love nor money and all of the modeling settings were well, just off.. They all souded flat and boring apart from maybe one or two.. It put me off them for life. But ive seen that they are starting to get better as the tech gets better so maybe its time to go and try one of the new ones? Also as mentioned in another thread Steve Howe of Asia and Yes uses a Line 6 on stage..

 

I also a few years back got a mini stack MG 15HFX, which I liked quite alot (but had to sell as I needed the money).. Again im not saying its a tube amp but this cost me £225 and kicks butt for the price.. (and I know its not quite the same as what your talking about, but the MG series is like Marshall modelling Marshall and have built in effects and you could save four seperate sounds with the footswitch).

 

I have a video of it here I took just before I sold it.

[Versatile]

A timely and interesting post...

 

There are aspects to this subject...dependent on the individual musician...

 

Like many transistor/digital toys nowadays...choices have proliferated as PCB technology has become available cheaply to everyone

 

A quality valve/tube amp can be used as is...with limitations accepted and used as creative constraints

 

Or as an analogue platform to any fx imaginable

 

IMX hybrid amps like Vox Valvetronics and Marshalls various

 

Provide a wealth of accessible tones at an affordable price

 

And ss amps like Roland Cube and Laney Prism punch well above their weight regarding models and usable fx....

 

V

 

[Californiaman]

I'm going tube all the way.

I have several combo amps, every one of them a tube amp, and wouldn't change a thing.

My Deluxe—nothing like it for responsiveness. Hit the strings quietly and you get clean. Hit the strings hard and you get breakup.

My Two-tone special Blues Jr—Master Volume allows me to get as much break up as I need.

The GA-5 Les Paul Jr.—Best five-watt amp for the money. Bedroom quiet to loud lead distorted tones when it's cranked.

You can keep your modeling amps.

I'm sticking with tubes.

[kidblast]

Like where this is starting out. This is really about having something to turn on, and practice/noodle For recording, if you got the tube amps you gotta go with it. But you'd be surprised with what comes loaded up in a combo like the Mustang III. I was amazed what is offered in this package, it changed my mind completely about this entire subject.

 

The reality here is, the newer offerings are light years past even the products you could find 4 or 5 years back. I think it changes the game a bit, well anyway, that's sort of the point of the topic. I still have one of the first pods Firmware 1.2! and you're right, there's absolutely no way to get a respectable clean sound out of it, and the rest of it just sounds sterile and touch dynamics are non-existent.

 

I hear ya with the touch dynamics too, it's a big deal for me as well. I have three great tube amps, I'll never sell em. I have a mustang III and you would be very surprised how the touch dynamics works on it. I'm also gonna say I have pretty "picky" ears....

[Rabs]

Like where this is starting out. This is really about having something to turn on, and practice/noodle For recording, if you got the tube amps you gotta go with it. But you'd be surprised with what comes loaded up in a combo like the Mustang III. I was amazed what is offered in this package, it changed my mind completely about this entire subject.

 

The reality here is, the newer offerings are light years past even the products you could find 4 or 5 years back. I think it changes the game a bit, well anyway, that's sort of the point of the topic. I still have one of the first pods Firmware 1.2! and you're right, there's absolutely no way to get a respectable clean sound out of it, and the rest of it just sounds sterile and touch dynamics are non-existent.

 

I hear ya with the touch dynamics too, it's a big deal for me as well. I have three great tube amps, I'll never sell em. I have a mustang III and you would be very surprised how the touch dynamics works on it. I'm also gonna say I have pretty "picky" ears....

And just to prove my point.. Heres a vid of my little MG 15FX... Sure im getting the reverb from the big room, but the amp sounds huge for its size and cost.

 

(sorry for the length, but it was fun :) check the distorted bit at about 3:50.. to my ears at least it sounds great for £90 and being like 15 or so years old).

[jdgm]

I'm not exactly into modeling for my own guitar amp sounds at the moment. And I too only have tube amps right now although I once had a JC120, great amp. But surely design of tube amps is now so 'evolved' that it can't go much further. I'm all in favour of low-wattage, sweet & simple tube amps - love my old Vibrochamp and AC10 - but what we have here is the digital vs analog argument isn't it? I believe digital has got a lot better in the last 10 yrs or so, and goes up a level every few years. And as the modeling happens around the pre-amp stage we can have cake and eat it too. I saw Steve Winwood a few years back, and when he cranked up the Cyber-Twin the tone was amazing and practically pinned you to the wall!

 

And I tried - I really tried - a Boss GT6 for 2-3 years; I got some good sounds but ultimately it was too complex for me. There was nothing wrong with the amp modeling part but I needed an amp with conventional controls. The GT6 is a preamp as well as an effects board and so I should have got a power amp, but this meant every tonal adjustment would be on the pedalboard and that wasn't convenient at all for playing live. So I came back to analog.

However R&D continues forever and today's combos with digital modeling and valve power stages must sound wonderful.

 

I still have some old 8-bit digital rack fx, they work and sound good and not worth selling...I use 'em!

[strat-o-steve]

A decent quality tube amp will always be the way to go. I have owned cheap tube amps, expensive tube amps, and cheap/expensive solid state amps. The analog warmth just cannot be matched! Digital distortion effects and just a digital signal in general, sounds harsh to me. Tube distortion has clarity and crunch, whereas digital distortion effects seem to lose clarity as gain is applied, and instead of getting crunchier, seem to just get more "static-y". Of course, tube brands and speaker selection makes a great difference, just as what class tube amp you have (A, B, A/B). I have no problems using a solid state amp for clean tones, because solid state amps can crank out the volume without cleans breaking up :) But for any heavy, crunchy tone.....gimmie a tube amp.....and a Bad Monkey :D

[J.R.M.30!]

I agree tube amps have more going on and have that "live sound" less like your stereo, eh, computer where as digital amps sound LIKE your stereo. Have you considered a hybrid amp that is digital but sounds like a tube amp rather than a solid state amp. Crate has some reasonable hybrid amps out there.

[dem00n]

I'm going for tube.

Even for a $150 you can pick up a Fender champion 600, which i did. It sounds great, i didnt even change out the cheap tubes as well. It works great with pedals. I do think that SS amps are improving and one day will over take tube amps but for now they still haven't reached it. Also, i don't find the effects in modeling amps to sound all that great, which is why i favor stomp boxes. Stomp boxes do sound a lot better through tube amps, i have always found that be so. But that can be argued, as well all of this to.

Of course there's always the classic proper Marshall half stack and a les paul...you know.

[Thundergod]

Great thread Kidblast.

 

I used to be a pedal guy. Then I became a multifx pedalboard guy (started out with zoom and moved on to boss and then tc electronic... ended up with a lot more options than I needed and a lot of manuals to read )

 

After a while I started buying single fx pedals or stomp boxes... then a few rackmountable units just because (at this point it's better I make it clear: I make a living of music, and a good one, so I don't really have the wife problem until stuff starts appearing at home, as long as everything is in the studio and not using "shoe room" it's all cool).

 

Anyway, I wasn't really happy with my sound, I used only solid state amps because of portability, weight and reliability (yeah, I drank that koolaid). I would always tweak my pedals and pedalboard and whatever I had plugged into the solid state head or combo, and never got the results I wanted.

 

Then I bought my first (and favorite so far) tube amp and I was blown away by it's tone. I became one of those "all tube" guys... and when forum member AXE posted some demos of him playing a vox tonelab LE I really liked the tones he got, so I went out and got one of those, the tube does make a difference. I sold most of the other stuff as it wasn't of use anymore.

 

Then I started getting more amps, then got into small low wattage amps, and some are really great. Most people would say they are one trick ponies but with the right guitar you can certainly use the guitar's controls to change tone a lot. I'll tell you this: I never use a compressor pedal or the compressor setting on my pedalboard. Never. And still I get plenty of tonal options from one trick pony low watt amps.

 

I got a vox night train (original 12W version) and I wish it had a foot switch jack, but it doesn't, and still I can get lots of different tones with it. But that gets used only for original songs I'm producing... if I'm playing covers I use a pedalboard most of the time.

 

I got tired of lugging a heavy amp around and a pedalboard, so I went and bought a vox vlvetronix amp (this was at the same time I was buying equipment for a rehearsal room I have for rent) and ended up with a 50W valvetronix (new) and a 100W line6 flextone amp (older). The vox is way better, maybe because technology has evolved a lot since line 6 started selling the flextone. Every customer that plays those amps ends up wanting to buy them, some of them come in with their tube heads (I provide cabs) and they end up leaving that at home when they come back because they are blown away by these amps.

 

So in my opinion it's all good, there's no saying this or that amp doesn't do for "more serious work", every amp can sound great and has a use you can give it, same goes for pedals, BUT, IMHO, modeling amps are a no brainer for those with a lower budget, instead of spending lots of money on a tube amp + pedals (and patch cables and power supplies) you can get a lot of tones in one thing that costs way less and is easy to carry around.

 

Just my 2c.

[Riffster]

When it comes to small wattage amps the way I see is that if you are playing more processed sounds, modern with effects then a modeling amp may be the better fit.

 

If you like the a clean classic sound or a roaring overdrive thta will react to you playing definitely go for tube, a master volume is a plus on my book, no need for overdrive pedals.

[bonzoboy]

I have an array of tube and solid state as well as hybrid modeling amps and actually I have found all of them are capable of producing great tones.My star hybrid is my Vox AD-120-VTH that is simply an incredible amp and is capable of 16 very convincing amp models as well as 16 effects that are also excellent at emulating the original effects that they are modeled after.It also has several types of delay,echo and reverb as well as several modulating effects that are so much like the real things that it's uncanny.The beauty of the AD-120 is that unlike other hybrid amps it has the 12AX7 tube in the power amp section as opposed to the preamp in all others,this gives the amp a genuine tube sound instead of the clinical solid state like sound of other hybrids.The amp also has well over 100 programable models and effects that you can preset and access with the optional VC-12 Foot Controller that really opens up the versatility of the amp.I recently bought the tiny Vox Mini 3 modeling amp with 10 pretty good amp models,5 great effects and several cool reverb/echo/delay settings.The amp only has a tiny 6 or 8 inch speaker but a buddy of mine hooked his up to a Marshall 1960 A cabinet and said that the amp models sounded very very close to the real thing when put through that rather than the tiny amp speaker. Although the AD120VTH is a head that requires either 2 matched cabs or a stereo cab such as the Vox 412 BN that I put mine through,there are combos in the series that start at 15 W and go all the way up to the 120W that mine is.All of these amps are just sublime,especially when equipped with the optional Celestion Golds or Greenbacks. Although the Steve Grindrod designed Wharfedales that are standard are great speakers too, the Celestions are more responsive and have better definition.

[Sinner 13]

I'm going tube all the way.

I have several combo amps, every one of them a tube amp, and wouldn't change a thing.

My Deluxe—nothing like it for responsiveness. Hit the strings quietly and you get clean. Hit the strings hard and you get breakup.

My Two-tone special Blues Jr—Master Volume allows me to get as much break up as I need.

The GA-5 Les Paul Jr.—Best five-watt amp for the money. Bedroom quiet to loud lead distorted tones when it's cranked.

You can keep your modeling amps.

I'm sticking with tubes.

 

 

I agree with you all the way here, because before all this modeling Hype came along SS amps were / are Crap IMO.

I have had them in all types, and they all sucked.

 

I have two amps, my 1959HW JMP, and a Vox ACTV4.

The Vox is for noodling about on the couch, The Marshall my stage rig.

 

I rarely play totally clean, and with the right boost/OD Combo I can get a nicely defined OD sound.

Or if I Want to really push into it with say my Rat, or a similar distortion, I can cover ground from 60's rock, to shreddy Metal.

It all lies in how you chain your pedals and knowing their idiosyncrasies.

[stein]

I think the saying "you get what you pay for" applies here as much as anything, and makes all the difference in the world regardless of "tube vs ss".

 

About 3 or 4 years ago I went to a music store to get a small inexpensive amp for a gift, and played a few of these inexpensive tube amps...and they sucked hard. Ended up getting a ss one because it sounded better. Also, when we are talking about amps in the 100-400 dollar range, that's STUDENT MODEL prices with student model quality. If you own a Gibson, you really should be thinking about a quality amp before you go buying too many more guitars.

 

I am often suprised how many poeple will spend 2k on an axe, and then have MANY top-notch guitars and balk at the price of a 2k amp. A hand built amp with quality tubes, transformers, and speakers is going to do a heck of a lot more for your "tone" than nitro vs poly, satin vs gloss, etc. I wouldn't even want to judge how good or bad pickups are through a modeling amp or a cheaper tube amp.

 

I don't mean to say the discussion doesn't belong on a Gibson forum or not worthwhile, but there should be perspective. Modeling amps or cheaper tube amps are for fun and for students. It doesn't really matter which is better, but which is more fun. If it is actually quality that matters, the debate on which is more "valid" or higher quality is like "argueing about the weather".

[Tman]

My humble opine.

Mesa Ta 15 or 30

Tube.

[badbluesplayer]

What riffster said. If you play with effects, the hybrid amps are o.k. If you want the clean or crunchy tubey sound, it's very hard to get with a solid state amp.

 

For me, the modeling amps sound fizzy.

 

I have three small tube amps that I like really well. Silverface Champ with the Layla type mod and a (mostly useless) bright switch. A VHT Ultra 6, which is the boss man right now - thanks to Surfpup for the heads up on this amp. I made the footswitchable volume boost adjustable, from no boost to monster boost. I have a Marshall Class 5 too, which is pretty darn nice, although I had to do a few mods to make it sound good with single coils.

 

And it all depends on the budget. Like thunder said, you can't get much of a tube rig for 200-300 bucks, but you can get more in a solid state or hybrid amp.

[kidblast]

Much insight here, thanks for the participation so far. I've had a plethora of gear over the years. Never had a full stack, had no way to move it, a few half stacks (ampeg vt22 and a v4) working 35/40 weeks a year, lugging that stuff around got old, so I switched over to combos, the trade offs were real, the half stacks roared but realistically the combos did the job, as everything was miced up and under a sound mans control for the house. I've also had a few Blues Jrs, and one of the first Crate Vintage Club 30watt combos, which my son has now.

 

My current gigging rigs, a Marshall JTM60 2x12 with a JTM 2x12 cab, a Fender Hot Rod Deville (4x10 version) and a class A Gibson GA30RVS, A Pedal Train pedal board that's about as heavy as the Marshall. I use the amps gain stage as much as possible, unless I have the GA30RVS which has 3 controls, Volume, Tone and Reverb, that needs to be front-ended with something.

 

Depending on what amp I feel like humping around, it's one of these that gets hauled to a gig, or jam with the ppl I work with (usually the Marshall with the ext. cab) 2x12s aint gonna move enough air with these guys.

 

As I mentioned earlier in the thread I have a line 6 pod, I rarely use,just sold one of the orginal valvetronxix 30 watt 10" speaker combo. Amp sounded great, and it was perfect for noodling. I replaced it with a Mustang III, and that is an amazing product.

 

I guess the reason for the thread was just about the player looking for the parlor / practice amp and genuinely curious about the options people here are inclined to go for. About the Student amp comment, I used to agree with that completely, till I tried the Mustang, that was an eye opener.

 

and it is the budget issue that made me wonder, if the amp is just gonna be hanging out in your living room, seems one of these newer modelers offers a great option for "This sort of use"

[Rabs]

Much insight here, thanks for the participation so far. I've had a plethora of gear over the years. Never had a full stack, had no way to move it, a few half stacks (ampeg vt22 and a v4) working 35/40 weeks a year, lugging that stuff around got old, so I switched over to combos, the trade offs were real, the half stacks roared but realistically the combos did the job, as everything was miced up and under a sound mans control for the house. I've also had a few Blues Jrs, and one of the first Crate Vintage Club 30watt combos, which my son has now.

 

My current gigging rigs, a Marshall JTM60 2x12 with a JTM 2x12 cab, a Fender Hot Rod Deville (4x10 version) and a class A Gibson GA30RVS, A Pedal Train pedal board that's about as heavy as the Marshall. I use the amps gain stage as much as possible, unless I have the GA30RVS which has 3 controls, Volume, Tone and Reverb, that needs to be front-ended with something.

 

Depending on what amp I feel like humping around, it's one of these that gets hauled to a gig, or jam with the ppl I work with (usually the Marshall with the ext. cab) 2x12s aint gonna move enough air with these guys.

 

As I mentioned earlier in the thread I have a line 6 pod, I rarely use,just sold one of the orginal valvetronxix 30 watt 10" speaker combo. Amp sounded great, and it was perfect for noodling. I replaced it with a Mustang III, and that is an amazing product.

 

I guess the reason for the thread was just about the player looking for the parlor / practice amp and genuinely curious about the options people here are inclined to go for. About the Student amp comment, I used to agree with that completely, till I tried the Mustang, that was an eye opener.

 

and it is the budget issue that made me wonder, if the amp is just gonna be hanging out in your living room, seems one of these newer modelers offers a great option for "This sort of use"

Haha.. and it looks like I sit by myself with my MGs..

 

Oh well..

 

I do intend on getting a tube one day.. need a bloody job first :)

 

I did have one once... but the whole having to krank it to get a good overdrive sound meant i sold it quite quickly.. I probably just didnt know what I was doing with the settings..

[kidblast]

Haha.. and it looks like I sit by myself with my MGs..

 

Oh well..

 

I do intend on getting a tube one day.. need a bloody job first :)

 

I did have one once... but the whole having to krank it to get a good overdrive sound meant i sold it quite quickly.. I probably just didnt know what I was doing with the settings..

 

Naw, you aint alone, one of my sons Bandmates pulled one of thouse out of a back closet in a store he was teaching at. When he asked about buying the amp the store owner shrugged and said "give me 40 bucks and it's yours" he had 30 bucks on him, and that did it. It had some problems, but they were easily addressed. Great sounds came out of it. I think he still has it.