sorry Gibson, I'm calling you out on this one

[capmaster]

Gotta love the marketing pros. Take a look at your laundry detergent bottles. On a 50 ounce bottle.

Large print 50 percent more!

Fine print (Than a 25 ounce bottle)

It is more and more common here, too, to add a reference in fine print in order you won't get the truth too soon

 

Seems to be same kind rip-off everywhere :angry:

 

My fixed-focus plastic eye lenses would cause me to change dozens of times between three different glasses, so I use a magnifying glass when shopping.

[badbluesplayer]

I'm just glad that the '14's "New model year serial numbering system enhances collectability." I'm all over that!!

[BobF_]

Gotta love the marketing pros. Take a look at your laundry detergent bottles. On a 50 ounce bottle.

Large print 50 percent more!

Fine print (Than a 25 ounce bottle)

 

That's like the Mayo that quietly went from 32 to 30 oz. A few weeks later, a BIG PRINT label shows up on 36 oz jars claiming 20% more than the 30 oz size. Are they trying to convince us that there never was a 32 oz jar?

 

Sausage by the pound is now sausage by 13 or 14 oz.

 

Ivory soap is 3.5 oz bars instead of the 4 oz they had been since The Beginning of Time.

 

Changes size/qty instead of price has been the new game for quite a while now ... but the prices haven't changed, so there is no inflation!

 

 

Part of this is to break away from standard size packaging - ever notice how the 23-3/4oz containers don't have per oz pricing?

 

 

I can't believe people still believe that gummint can *effectively* regulate anything. For every "smart" person in gummint, there are 1,000 smarter people in the private sector. There are also private sector lawyers :)

 

Then again, is regulation really a problem for business? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture

 

Apparently not if you're big enough

[marvar]

 

Edit: how about finding "logic" in this part of the statement: "Fly over the fingerboard with undercut fret over binding."

 

Say what?

 

m

What this means is: there will no longer be nibs on the fret ends/binding- check the ads/pics.

One of the things that always set Gibson apart from the rest of the pack-and gives them a more elegant and finished look-

Want nibs on your fretboard? better buy a pre 2014 model

[badbluesplayer]

I learned my lesson when I got caught stealing cigarettes when I was about 14. My dad told me "You may be smart but you're not smart enough to be a crook."

 

Hank isn't smart enough to be a crook either.

[milod]

"Fly over the fingerboard with undercut fret over binding."

 

What I was laughing at was the "fly over the fingerboard" regardless of binding - or none at all. It was the term "fly over the fingerboard." Me, I always figured that touching the strings to make them touch the frets was kinda important.

 

For what it's worth, I've personally never been a fan of the nibs. In fact, I really don't care all that much for neck binding at all. Then again... I started on a classical and never saw one so-equipped regardless of price tag - so I never considered it a mark of quality but more something like chrome on 1950s automobiles... Pretty but not really functional.

 

m

[cookieman15061]

I wish they would keep Baked Maple it is my favorite all time fretboard above Ebony.

 

Im glad I got one.

 

I don't want a Richlite at all.

 

I don't think the Baked Maple was laminated It does not seem like the Granadillo was either.

 

Im extremely happy with my Classic Custom and Signature T

Donny agree totally. Love the baked maple.

[spacealf]

What strings? What setup? Any number of things could be different, and who believes advertising anyway?

 

There are usually reviews for just about anything and other people make a living also doing those reviews.

 

I have a 2011 Les Paul cheapy one, and the action is not as good and it is thinner, and the pickups are different.

 

When I got my Les Paul Traditional just a few days ago, I should complain that no one told me that compared to my cheapy Les Paul I have to play different and it sustains way longer than expected - compared to playing my cheapy one.

It also has a pleked fret board, and low and behold the action can be lower besides the pickups being different.

 

The point is, both have their uses. I can do more with the cheapy one, because if something happens to it, I won't feel as bad than with the new more expensive model.

The tone though is usually in the fingers more than any guitar and in the head of the beholder.

 

I am not going to worry or think too much about advertising, because that is what advertising is - if you were at least thinking perhaps of buying anything, then this advertisement may make you feel more like buying one. 2000 years ago, the same thing happened in this world. Someone sat down someone else, and sold it.

[jdgm]

There is more than one Chris Thompson.

 

I played with one of them. Rubbish ceilidh gig and...

never mind...

[cookieman15061]

I learned my lesson when I got caught stealing cigarettes when I was about 14. My dad told me "You may be smart but you're not smart enough to be a crook."

 

Hank isn't smart enough to be a crook either.

 

 

Hank has never admitted to or ever been charged with stealing cigarettes.

 

Ha!

[badbluesplayer]

Hank has never admitted to or ever been charged with stealing cigarettes.

 

Ha!

I got some cigarettes if you kids want some.

[vangoghsear]

.

At the beginning of the whole laminated rosewood debacle, Gibson took the ethical low road - the lowest road. They didn't tell anyone. People were buying guitars without the knowledge that Gibson had began to use laminated rosewood for fingerboards on electric and acoustic guitars, as well as laminated rosewood for bridges on acoustic guitars. And yes, Gibson was using laminated rosewood on premium priced guitars - Historics and True Vintage models. When word got out, some people were pissed and some didn't care. BTW, the top layer of the fingerboard laminates was shallower that the fret tangs, essentially creating 22 little pieces of rosewood glued down between the fret wires. Quite an uproar ensued and Gibson posted this little wonder - http://www2.gibson.com/Support/FAQ-Tonewoods.aspx - with this load of BS: "Why didn't you use these materials before? The recent disruption of supply caused us to move up some plans we already had in R&D. We were also contacted by a variety of new suppliers with alternatives we had not yet tried, which we found to be excellent for guitar construction."

 

Save the explanations and excuses. After having gone through this BS, I can certainly see where Farns is coming from. Since Gibson has dumped layered/laminated rosewood, I guess that R&D went out the window too - don't see too much alternative material/wood anymore except for richlite. It's pretty obvious to me the low road got Gibson in pretty deep, so they quietly tried to move back to solid rosewood. So Gibby, stop tripping over your tongue - when you make a change, be up fron; and stay on the straight, narrow and solid path.

 

 

.

I do agree with you that the customer should have been told what they were buying.

 

But what BS are you referring to?

 

My father was a master cabinet maker who made shellback corner cupboards, cabriolet leg tables, etc. He taught me that a glue joint is stronger than the wood it is holding together.

 

Here is a video that demonstrates that fact:

 

 

Also, plywood IS more stable than solid wood. That stability is what makes acoustic guitars built from laminated wood stay the same in tone over time (stability) instead of "opening" like solid wood acoustic guitars.

 

As for the glued down bits between the frets, my two Gibsons have trapezoid inlays that nearly span the fret width, so what is the difference?

 

They probably abandoned it for exactly the reason stated, it takes more time and probably costs more than using solid rosewood.

[BigKahune]

I do agree with you that the customer should have been told what they were buying.

 

But what BS are you referring to?

 

 

The BS I was referring to: Gibson getting caught by the Lacey Act - TWICE! . Gibson sneaking in changes (regardless of their "changes in spec may occur at anytime" caveat). Gibson covering. Gibson waffling. Gibson going back to solid rosewood.

 

PLEASE, no more lectures on glue, plywood and basic woodworking. It's just more of the same posting I've seen many times on this subject. Posting any amount of this information isn't going to change the fact that the vast majority people buying guitars equate laminates with cheap instruments. This is the problem Gibson ran into with layered rosewood. There were plenty of complaining customers posting objections on the various forums around the internet. Obviously perceptions/complaints/sales were bad enough that Gibson is now back to solid rosewood. Personally I wasn't unknowingly sold an instrument with a layered fretboard or bridge. If I was I wouldn't have liked it. And once I became aware of it, I avoided them. That's my preference.

 

 

.

[vangoghsear]

The BS I was referring to: Gibson getting caught by the Lacey Act - TWICE! . Gibson sneaking in changes (regardless of their "changes in spec may occur at anytime" caveat). Gibson covering. Gibson waffling. Gibson going back to solid rosewood.

 

PLEASE, no more lectures on glue, plywood and basic woodworking. It's just more of the same posting I've seen many times on this subject. Posting any amount of this information isn't going to change the fact that the vast majority people buying guitars equate laminates with cheap instruments. This is the problem Gibson ran into with layered rosewood. There were plenty of complaining customers posting objections on the various forums around the internet. Obviously perceptions/complaints/sales were bad enough that Gibson is now back to solid rosewood. Personally I wasn't unknowingly sold an instrument with a layered fretboard or bridge. If I was I wouldn't have liked it. And once I became aware of it, I avoided them. That's my preference.

 

 

.

I'm glad you avoided the laminated fretboards. I too would prefer solid wood and am glad both of my Gibsons have solid fretboards.

 

I'll tell you what I think is BS: The wood they bought was logged legally, but was 1/6th of an inch too thick (by FOREIGN law) to be sold as a part of a musical instrument because it wasn't planed in the country of origin. I sure am glad our government is on top of that kind of blatant abuse of the environment.

[Guest Farnsbarns]

I'm glad you avoided the laminated fretboard s. I too would prefer solid wood and am glad both of my Gibsons have solid fretboards.

 

I'll tell you what I think is BS: The wood they bought was logged legally, but was 1/6th of an inch too thick (by FOREIGN law) to be sold as a part of a musical instrument because it wasn't planed in the country of origin. I sure am glad our government is on top of that kind of blatant abuse of the environment.

 

To be fair, you've confused two separate issues. The Lacey act part, where it was alleged that the importation of fretboard blanks from india contravened Indian law with regards to the export of unfinished wood. The Indian authorities said that they considered them finished fretboard blanks and had no issue with it. That part was crazy.

 

Then there were issues, entirely separate, over the mislabeling of blanks, indicating that they fell below a certain thickness when they didn't. That happened and it was a problem.

 

Remembering Gibson was caught knowingly I importing illegal ebony as well, I think they could have been far worse off.

[Blueblooded]

...For what it's worth, I've personally never been a fan of the nibs. In fact, I really don't care all that much for neck binding at all. Then again... I started on a classical and never saw one so-equipped regardless of price tag - so I never considered it a mark of quality but more something like chrome on 1950s automobiles... Pretty but not really functional.

 

m

 

This thing has started a lot of different discussions... Honestly, I'm not really sure I understand how they layered the wood and glued it together. I find it hard to believe that they had to layer multiple pieces of rosewood to get a fingerboard of roughly 3/16" out of it ???. Is that right? That's crazy!

 

...on to Milod's quote that binding is "pretty but not really functional", I understand that the use of binding originated with the function to protect the edges of the instrument from damage during slight bumps. It takes a lot more to damage the binding when bumped than the wood if it didn't have binding. So, yes, it's like those big chrome bumpers on a 50 Merc!

 

While I like the "nibs", I don't think they enhance playability in any way. The best feeling fretboard I have is on my 2012 American Standard Strat. The way Fender rolls the edges of the fretboard and dresses the frets on the newer American Strats and Tele's makes them simply amazing! I guess if I want another Gibson with Nibs, I'll look for a nice used one. I'll save some money that way too.

[badbluesplayer]

I understand that the use of binding originated with the function to protect the edges of the instrument from damage during slight bumps.

 

I was thinking about this yesterday and it occurred to me that it kind of makes sense to keep the binding for protection and get rid of the nibs so it's easier to make, as long as there's no problems with the frets separating from the binding or something like that.

 

So they're probably onto something here and maybe they're just going to have to put those guitars out there and see if the traditionalists accept them. I think people will accept it over time, as long as the playability of the new necks isn't worse than the old ones.

[milod]

I guess that those who equate "laminated wood" with cheapness have never owned a Gibson semi, thin hollow or crappie cheapies like the ES175 and such.

 

Figure too that the government functionally dropped the case against Gibson and it appears the whole thing was even less than a tempest in a teapot and "we" still don't know exactly what brought this action since it obviously was not a matter of foreign government complaint, or even concurrence with the U.S. authorities, as would be assumed under Lacey.

 

But that's long in the past.

 

I really think this too is something of a tempest in a teapot involving interpretation of advertising matter that functionally is the same as most advertising matter - designed to say nothing if you parse the statements and submit them to scrutiny of logic, while building interest in a product.

 

And I'm serious, I'm not at all sure I care that much for binding other than it's a way to hide edges that may or may not be considered to be particularly attractive. It adds bling kinda like the sequins a lotta 1950s performers had sewn onto their stage "costumes," but I don't think it helped anybody or anything sing better.

 

m

[Twang Gang]

I'm with you on this one Farns. It's not about which board plays or sounds better (if there is any perceptable difference), it's about saying that layered boards are just fine (when you have no other choice than to make them) and then turning around and saying that enhanced sustain is the result of the one piece. An "enhancement" is generally percieved to be something "better".

 

But the bigger problem I see here is more a generational thing. Everyone here is saying "it's just marketing" in orther words when it comes to selling something or advertising something it is OK to lie about it. Lying has become accepted in business by most people under the age of 45 or 50. It is one of the reasons I left the business world, because the younger generations rarely keep their word about anything. I supposed it is the way they were raised, or the way their parents were raised that no one trusts anyone anymore, and no ones word is worth anything anymore. So to them "it's just marketing" is a way to shrug off what we think is blatantly wrong.

[milod]

I'd suggest that "it" isn't lying. Selling points, yes, showing them in the best light, definitely. Lying? Not really.

 

"Nothing cleans your teeth better than _____." A lie? Not really. Full disclosure? Not really either.

 

The reason a lot of advertising - and political propaganda of various sorts - is successful is largely because it appeals to the emotion as opposed to the logical mind.

 

Advertising copy is a variation on "rhetoric" such as "we" have studied for more than 2,500 years in documented form; long before that in semi-documented form.

 

Compared to a century ago, current advertising is more sophisticated, but also more carefully crafted in such a way as not to lie outright.

 

"Look at these ladies who successfully lost pounds and inches with Weight Loss Plan A." "I'm a former NFL quarterback and taking Z Pills helps my prostate and I can sleep all night without going to the bathroom."

 

Lies?

 

I feel that the new fingerboards and Plek treatment "enhance" sustain. You think the old fingerboards and frets are better. Who's right? We've had arguments here over what is our "favorite" fingerboard material.

 

It's functionally all subjective.

 

I on occasion will tear up arguments and watch people who are emotionally invested in that illogical argument get angry because they won't admit to their logical fallacy. Were they lying? I doubt they believed so, and on a lotta issues, it's a lot more important than an opinion on fingerboards enhancing sustain or not.

 

m

[saturn]

I'd suggest that "it" isn't lying. Selling points, yes, showing them in the best light, definitely. Lying? Not really.

 

"Nothing cleans your teeth better than _____." A lie? Not really. Full disclosure? Not really either.

 

The reason a lot of advertising - and political propaganda of various sorts - is successful is largely because it appeals to the emotion as opposed to the logical mind.

 

Advertising copy is a variation on "rhetoric" such as "we" have studied for more than 2,500 years in documented form; long before that in semi-documented form.

 

Compared to a century ago, current advertising is more sophisticated, but also more carefully crafted in such a way as not to lie outright.

 

"Look at these ladies who successfully lost pounds and inches with Weight Loss Plan A." "I'm a former NFL quarterback and taking Z Pills helps my prostate and I can sleep all night without going to the bathroom."

 

Lies?

 

 

m

 

Kinda like that woman who used to come on TV about a year ago for 5 Hour Energy drink? She would make some claim like "75% of doctors recommend a low calorie energy drink to those patients who already use energy drinks".

[brundaddy]

Welcome to marketing, boys and girls.

[cookieman15061]

I feel better when my elected officials lie to me, so it only stands to reason I'll buy more guitars if my guitar maker lies to me.

 

 

 

 

See there it's all good.

 

 

 

 

I can keep my current healthcare provider.....

[milod]

Perhaps even as an old guy I do see a difference between marketing and playing up selling points - and outright lies.

 

The original piece here had to do with questioning one of those selling points added to an ad.

 

I wasn't bothered by it.

 

I am bothered by what I knew at the time was a lie by a salesman as opposed to a selling point.

 

m

[charlie brown]

Well, I agree, that misrepresentation(s) have become all too "normal," these days,

in eveything!

 

And, with that, it's sometimes hard to tell, what is "marketing," and what's a

downright lie! The cynic in me, says marketing it mostly lies! LOL But, in all

seriousness, I can understand the frustrations, with unclear, or questionable

phrasing, and "spec's." Even IF they contend they can change those, at any time,

without notice.

 

CB