deepblue Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I have a few guys at the Les Paul forum pissed at me. Im sorry, but this 1959 Les Paul hype is really getting on my nerves. I agree that they are a legend. Some 59's sound great...some...not so much. Just like any guitar line made in any given year. Theres good and then theres so-so. The LPF is a bit of a snobotorium. You have a some guys on there with 40+ les Pauls...all vintage. I dont have a problem with that. I wish I had the money to have a collection like that, but I dont and more power to those guys that do...and this isnt a beef at them. Its to those fellas on there that cant get it through their heads that 1959 was only a year. Its not a magic potion for making Lesters sound the sweetest. I made two points as to why theres so much hype. 1) The owners of these investments want us pee-ons to think we are missing something. 2) To over hype the sound/tone to protect their investment. My point to them was that there are guitars made RIGHT NOW that sound just as good as even the nicest sounding Lester of 59. Youd think I had insulted their families the way some of them carry on about my comment. Dont get me wrong guys. I bought an R9 because I wanted a 1959 vibe to call my own. So in some ways I got caught up in the hype. But im old enough and wise enough to understand that theres going to be guitars out there that sound as good, if not better then mine. Some people get blinded by the light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichCI Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 +1 Here's a good article on 59 Les Pauls that compares six of them: http://www.tonequest.com/pdf_pubs/TQRApr08_screen.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichCI Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 More... Let's face, we're all a little more into guitars, specifically Gibsons, than most people are. But, in the end, all they are are tools for making music and there is no one tool that is perfect for every job. I dig Les Pauls a lot, partly because of the way they look but - for me - they're not objects of art; for others, maybe they are. Perhaps an authentic 1959 LP does it for one player who is into blues or whatever but it might be a horrible choice for someone who plays another style of music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I actually have to agree with you. I as many others here, have a "thing" for the LP, reissues, etc..... I do like the '59s, as well as many other models. I could go on with the rants & raves about each one, but ......IMO.....it's all in the eyes and the ears of the buyer. "Personal Preference "are the words I'm looking for....I guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruznolfart Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Nothing new under the sun, deepblue. Go to a Harley group and tell them your brand X cruiser, for half the price of a Harley, makes you just as happy as any Harley you ever owned. You'll be branded an America-hating traitor! Or tell them your NEW Harley is just as much an icon as a '47 knucklehead. Or tell them your electric-start Harley is just as much a Harley as a kicker. Tell a Colt owner that your Kimber was a better pistol out-of-the-box. I wonder what the percentage would be of people who acknowledge being brand-snobs or, worse yet, model-and-year-specific brand snobs. Not that there's anything WRONG with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RudyH Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I think the issue with real 59s is that under 2000 were made, and that rarity has contributed to their vintage status. I think the vintage market is a great thing. It's great to know that when I'm tired of my old and worn guitar that I can sell it for three times the cost of a new one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffster Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I would add reason 3) 1959 Les Pauls are rented for recording at a pretty penny. Last example is Chinese Democracy. Vintage Guitar magazine had an issue where this guy Liebeman has 4 59's and yet his favorite is a '62 SG with PAFs. With as much as 15% winding differential in PAF pickups they cannot all sound great. Also how do you explain that the LPs with more flame are the more collecatble ones? or the ones that are not as faded?.... I thought it was all about the sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homz Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I think the issue with real 59s is that under 2000 were made' date=' and that rarity has contributed to their vintage status. I think the vintage market is a great thing. It's great to know that when I'm tired of my old and worn guitar that I can sell it for three times the cost of a new one. [/quote'] I think the number made was only half the story. Take for example the 1936 Martin D 45 some referrer to it as the Holy Grail. Only 2 made that year. It is (on the books at least) worth $25k less then a 59 LP. Not that I'm trying to add to the 59 hype, I am just trying to say it's not simply a matter of the sum of the parts. It's greater then the sum, at least in the minds of those that praise them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSG_Standard Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 The hype around the fabled '59 LPs makes me think about the hype around muscle cars. IMHO, if you think about the old muscle cars they really aren't that great. They had sh!tty brakes, cheap interiors, sh!tty suspensions, couldn't turn worth a crap, got terrible gas mileage and were heavy and prone to body rust. In spite of the problems, many/most baby boomers want one. Go to a barrett Jackson auction and you'll see guys in their late 40's to early '60s shelling out huge money for some old 'cuda or camaro. The old muscle cars command a high price because they bring back the youthful feelings and dreams of the folks that can afford one now and maybe couldn't in the past. They are not better cars than what you can build or buy today, they just have a mystique about them. Same with the '58, '59 and '60 LPs....My .02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarbob123 Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 if eric clapton was just getting famous today he would just buy a lp standard. he wouldn't save up for the most expensive in the range which is why we should just go with todays equivalent not get reissues. this is why i'm saving for an les paul axcess or a standard 08 because i'm going to make them be the holy grail in 50 years time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRV-Zeppelin Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I agree completely. While I can't deny that R9s are better than most LPs I've played (not all), I can't justify the price of a new 59 reissue, despite its perks. I've never played an original 59, but I can't imagine that it would be worth half a million dollars... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffster Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Not a lot of people talk about the 1958 Explorer that fetched $600,000 at auction in October 2007. The highest price paid for a non-celebrity owned guitar. EDIT: $611,000 October 2006. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Plains Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 The only reason they're worth so much is because of the people who played them. That's it, as far as I'm concerned. Think of all the famous guitar players who played a '59. If they all went to a different guitar, like let's say a '61 SG, then those '61 SGs would be the $500,000 guitars those 50s LPs would basically be worthless and the LP body style would newer have been resurrected. Look at the autographed Jimmy Page Les Pauls they released a few years back. What would normally be a $5,000 guitar was touched and autographed by the man himself, then sold for $25,000. Now that guitar is worth $100,000+. The guitars themselves are no better than any other but because Jimmy had a role they're worth a fortune. As for Les Paul reissues, I'm sure most of you know how I feel about them. I love them but it has nothing to do with the '50 correlation. I don't pickup my R9 and say 'look at me, I'm Jimmy Page.' I love them because of the way they sound and the way they're built. The LPF is a a great forum to get educated on Les Pauls. The thing that ticks me off about that forum is the guys that can't get past the fact that new reissues are not exact replicas of the old '50s burst. They criticize the R9 because the tailpiece is not angled correctly like a '59, or the inlays & tuners aren't white enough like a '59, or the neck profile isn't as rounded like a '59. IT'S NOT A '59 ******* LES PAUL!! It's a new solid-bodied Les Paul that they've dubbed the '59 Les Paul reissue just so baby boomers can relate to the olden days. What gets on my nerves even more are the ones that trash talk the '09 R9s without even playing one beforehand. Some stranger went to NAMM, posted what they think the changes are, and that's enough for some of these Les Paul elitists to form a concussion that the guitar is no good. These people are not guitar players or musicians. They're historians and nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Californiaman Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Proof again why this is such a great forum to be a part of. Yes, like any other guitar made there are several factors that go into a guitar's tone and vibe. It's the wood, the pickup windings etc. etc... that make each individual guitar unique. Yes, if I had the money, I'd probably get an R9. But I'll bet I can find another reissue equal to if not better than, the R9. To many people think the '59 LP is the holly grail of guitars. The same can be said about a '52 Telecaster or '57 Stratocaster. Some will argue till the cows come home or they're blue in the face (not the cows, mind you) that the vintage they own is the best regardless of the rest. Let them be snobs. Let them be arrogant. In the end what does it matter? It's what you like. Because your guitar in your hands is unlike anything else on the planet. It's called soul. If you don't have soul, no one really wants to listen for too long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Yep. I was all set to buy an R8 when I joined this forum. Then I played an ES-335. Ended up with the ES-339. Love it. I'm a double cut kinda guy. Best to ya. Murph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGBENDS Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 IMO it's all about being a player. When I was younger there were guys (posers) with Gibson guitars who learned a few licks and got a drummer and bass player together to play a party or two to get the chicks all worked up, and granted they got their share of the girlies. Myself, I started playing before i was old enough to be thinking about the Horizontal Bop, and all I had was a Gibson Sonex bolt on neck with those harsh ceramic magnet pups. I practiced a lot and I knew my chops well and how to work my amp. Some of those guys were like "WoW. You can play that POS guitar." It wasn't an R9 or even a Les Paul. Hell, it was barely even a Gibson (Gibson Guitar Company is what it said on the headstock). Then again, I was impressed an even overshadowed by other guys that played other POS brands of guitars who practiced more than me or who came from musical families. They had older brothers who taught them all kinds of good sh*t I wished I'd learned in the late 70's early 80's. But I learned and played because I loved it (the guitar, that is). I didn't play to get laid (I had no problems there) or to be popular. My favorite thing to do was play guitar, and learn, and invent new songs/sounds, and if someone else liked it, great! I don't own an R9 and I didn't own a true Les Paul until I was in my 30's. I love the freakin' Les Paul and I've learned how to play it, use it, enjoy it, love it, appreciate it. I see some wealthy youngsters driving around in their Rousch Mustangs without a clue how to drive the damn car they way it was meant to be driven, but they look cool, the car is sweet and the girls come running. They can talk all they want, but the better driver (and guitarist) is, more often than not, the one who is passionate about it all. Passion. Yeah. That's it. Passion and Soul, like CaliMan said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilovegibsons Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 IMO it's all about being a player. When I was younger there were guys (posers) with Gibson guitars who learned a few licks and got a drummer and bass player together to play a party or two to get the chicks all worked up' date=' and granted they got their share of the girlies. Myself, I started playing before i was old enough to be thinking about the Horizontal Bop, and all I had was a Gibson Sonex bolt on neck with those harsh ceramic magnet pups. I practiced a lot and I knew my chops well and how to work my amp. Some of those guys were like "WoW. You can play that POS guitar." It wasn't an R9 or even a Les Paul. Hell, it was barely even a Gibson (Gibson Guitar Company is what it said on the headstock). Then again, I was impressed an even overshadowed by other guys that played other POS brands of guitars who practiced more than me or who came from musical families. They had older brothers who taught them all kinds of good sh*t I wished I'd learned in the late 70's early 80's. But I learned and played because I loved it (the guitar, that is). I didn't play to get laid (I had no problems there) or to be popular. My favorite thing to do was play guitar, and learn, and invent new songs/sounds, and if someone else liked it, great! I don't own an R9 and I didn't own a true Les Paul until I was in my 30's. I love the freakin' Les Paul and I've learned how to play it, use it, enjoy it, love it, appreciate it. I see some wealthy youngsters driving around in their Rousch Mustangs without a clue how to drive the damn car they way it was meant to be driven, but they look cool, the car is sweet and the girls come running. They can talk all they want, but the better driver (and guitarist) is, more often than not, the one who is passionate about it all. Passion. Yeah. That's the word.[/quote'] #-o =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 I'm totally with deepblue on this subject. The hype surrounding 1959 Les Pauls is, nowadays, fuelled by people with huge sums of disposable income/investment money. From what we can ascertain from various sources there is a large number of '59 bursts which are indeed owned by players - both the world-famous and unknown types (they got in there a long time ago!)- but the market nowadays must, for obvious reasons, be dominated by collectors who are interested in the value of the instrument as an object rather than the instrument as an instrument. This explains the preference amongst investors for the 'prettier' examples (the ex-Peter Green LP has very subdued flame as has 'Pearly Gates'. The 'Beano-burst' was, I'm pretty sure, a plaintop); the guitars are not being bought to be played and the actual sound produced is totally unimportant. What counts most is the originality of the instrument. As far as 1959 in particular being the 'Special' year is concerned : There are a few aspects where the typical '59 has more appeal, to most, than either the majority of '58s or those produced in the latter part of 1960, none of which affects the tone. Most collectors (whose opinion on the matter I've read) say the thicker necks were better 'tone-filters', therefore will sound better, yet Clapton's had a slim-neck; Page's had a unique, slim, profile; Peter Green said the 'Beano-burst' was the best sounding Les Paul he ever played (even although most of us think his guitar sounds fantastic); etc..etc......Yet 1959, somehow, just has to be the best year for everything, according to the collectors. As the Tonequest Report concluded there are a higher number of original 'bursts which sound 'ordinary' as opposed to 'special' but, obviously, they all sound fine. I am equally certain, through personal experience, that the instruments built nowadays have a similar demographic. Most sound great but, for reasons unknown, there are a few which sound Magnificent. I, for one, would like to know exactly why this should be the case. I've heard a great number of theories yet, although many have a bit to add to the equation, none fully explains the phenomenon. Great though the TQR article is it leaves a few questions unanswered. As I mentioned in a previous posting (on the subject of 'the importance of old-wood', I think) I would have loved to see what the result would be if the pups from the 'Winning' '59 were placed in the re-issue bought by the TQR team and vice-versa. Also, to hear the "Pat No." pups selected from Kim LaFleur at Vintage Checkout on both the vintage and re-issue Guitars. The link to the Tone Quest Report has been posted by RichCI - if you are even slightly interested in the subject of the original '59 instruments, please take the time to read it. It is, admittedly, rather long and is best read and re-read to extract the most from it. I printed it off and still use it regularly as reference material. If you are short of time then pages 3 to 11 are the most revealing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myspace.com/jessenoah Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 i daydream aboust 50s bursts not because of what they are, but because of the better materials, better construction, and the like they arnt perfect because of the year, but because of the way things where done in that year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Plains Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Jesse, I think you're an expample of a person caught in the hype. Please explain how they were constructed better? Better being the key word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Please explain how they were constructed better? Better being the key word. +1 For one thing I suspect the Klusons on newer instruments will still be the correct shape in fifty years time..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brundaddy Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Another reason why: "MOJO" People are stuck on stupid when it comes to believing that a guitar has magical powers. (Of course, "mojo" is merely the sum total of all the points you smart guys already made about the psychology) Just for shiggles, do a forum search for "mojo" y'all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homz Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 On the subject of MOJO. If you think that 59 will make you better it probably will. I know and my friends and wife would tell you, when I got my LP I played differently and yes better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myspace.com/jessenoah Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 i have been lucky to make friends with some people who have nice guitar collections, some guitars of value that i have been lucky enough to play include a 52 J-45 a 58 (?) LP std a 59 LP jr a dot 335 (63?) a 69 les paul deluxe and that lame 73 custom of all thoose guitars, the JR and the custom sucked really bad (IMO) the J-45, LP std, and 335 where godly the wood on thoose old guitars is really special, it is solid as a rock, but it feels soft, but you poke it and nothing happens, but you knock on it and it doesnt hurt your knuckles....... It might be mojo, I might be gullable, but when you play thoose special guitars, you can see why they are treasured like they are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilovegibsons Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 The '59 is a nice guitar, but I've heard them (admittedly not played) next to a good '07 standard and there really isn't that much difference (although the '59 is better) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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