Some thoughts on value, utility, and high-dollar guitars

[01GT eibach]

It is really a big mix made up of:

There are certain signature models that are purchased by the fan-base:  the Jimmy Page Dragon/Mirror telecasters, the Hendrix Strats, etc.  That is,  find me a buyer for either of these guitars that is not a huge Zep or Hendrix fan, respectively  ... probably not too many.

Then there is the total opposite side of the spectrum where it is the guitar's features that really drive purchases.   I think most buyers of the Kirk Douglas signature SGs buy it because those are seriously cool SGs, and most buyers of the recent Joan Jett 339 signature considered it far more because of the guitar's features than due to Joan Jett.  The original Les Pauls which were signature models in this category, too, as these guitars became legendary because of the guitars themselves and not Les Paul himself.  

That being said ... I do think that most "signature guitars" sales are a combination of guitar features and the artist endorsement.  For instance, all of the Slash, Joe Perry, and Alex Lifeson Les Pauls were not specifically purchased by GnR, Aerosmith, and Rush fanatics, I do not think.  The specific features that are in those guitars are what have the guitarist initially considering the purchase.  However, I do think the artist's signature does provide a certain "stamp of approval" and perceived coolness to the purchaser that allows Gibson and Fender to charge more for the guitar than they could without it.  Another good example is the Kurt Cobain Fender Jaguar that is likely sold based right down the middle between the features and coolness of the guitar but also within Nirvana's overall extended fan-ship.

I also believe that on the Fender side, Fender has a lot more "tone chasers" than on the Gibson side where purchasers are buying more due to artist tone than anything:  SRV, John Mayer, Clapton, Gilmour, Knopfler, Eric Johnson, Blackmore, etc.  That being said, most of these aforementioned tone-chasing models admittedly ALSO have significant and unique features that make them -- without a doubt -- attract guitarists seeking out these features without any concern for the signature name whatsoever.

[SteveFord]

01GT eibach nailed it.

The artists I admire bought their guitars because the artists they admired had them.  Those original  artists had them because that is what Gibson (Fender, Martin, whatever) was producing.  They wanted a good guitar, they went into the store and here's what they're making, take your pick.

That would make me the third generation and I became interested in them because that's what Chuck Berry, Eric Clapton, the Stones, etc. had.  I figured what they  owned was as good as you can get and I could use a lot of help with my playing.

As far a Chuck Berry or a Jeff Beck signature model, that doesn't really appeal to me.  That's what works for them.  It might be a wonderful guitar but I'm not them.  The Blow By Blow replica Les Paul didn't appeal to me at all.  Why would I want that?  Where's the tune-o-matic tail piece?  

I guess that puts me in the feature driven group.  Alvin Lee's 335 and Zappa's Roxy SG were modified enough to make them unique.  I don't want their signature on it, stickers, dents or whatever.  Give me the pristine guitar with those features and I'll try NOT to beat it up.

[Retired]

7 hours ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

Yes . . . he only does a dumb ink stamp with JP on it.

Learn something new every day!

[Retired]

3 hours ago, 01GT eibach said:

It is really a big mix made up of:

There are certain signature models that are purchased by the fan-base:  the Jimmy Page Dragon/Mirror telecasters, the Hendrix Strats, etc.  That is,  find me a buyer for either of these guitars that is not a huge Zep or Hendrix fan, respectively  ... probably not too many.

Then there is the total opposite side of the spectrum where it is the guitar's features that really drive purchases.   I think most buyers of the Kirk Douglas signature SGs buy it because those are seriously cool SGs, and most buyers of the recent Joan Jett 339 signature considered it far more because of the guitar's features than due to Joan Jett.  The original Les Pauls which were signature models in this category, too, as these guitars became legendary because of the guitars themselves and not Les Paul himself.  

That being said ... I do think that most "signature guitars" sales are a combination of guitar features and the artist endorsement.  For instance, all of the Slash, Joe Perry, and Alex Lifeson Les Pauls were not specifically purchased by GnR, Aerosmith, and Rush fanatics, I do not think.  The specific features that are in those guitars are what have the guitarist initially considering the purchase.  However, I do think the artist's signature does provide a certain "stamp of approval" and perceived coolness to the purchaser that allows Gibson and Fender to charge more for the guitar than they could without it.  Another good example is the Kurt Cobain Fender Jaguar that is likely sold based right down the middle between the features and coolness of the guitar but also within Nirvana's overall extended fan-ship.

I also believe that on the Fender side, Fender has a lot more "tone chasers" than on the Gibson side where purchasers are buying more due to artist tone than anything:  SRV, John Mayer, Clapton, Gilmour, Knopfler, Eric Johnson, Blackmore, etc.  That being said, most of these aforementioned tone-chasing models admittedly ALSO have significant and unique features that make them -- without a doubt -- attract guitarists seeking out these features without any concern for the signature name whatsoever.

Kirk Douglas played guitar? As father of Michael Douglas?  Never would have thought that!

[Sgt. Pepper]

2 hours ago, Retired said:

Kirk Douglas played guitar? As father of Michael Douglas?  Never would have thought that!

He’s the guitarist for a band called The Roots and are Jimmy Fallons band on The Tonight Show.

[01GT eibach]

2 hours ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

He’s the guitarist for a band called The Roots and are Jimmy Fallons band on The Tonight Show.

Here he is with his signature.  Cool SG without a doubt.

[merciful-evans]

10 hours ago, SteveFord said:

I guess that puts me in the feature driven group.  Alvin Lee's 335 and Zappa's Roxy SG were modified enough to make them unique.  I don't want their signature on it, stickers, dents or whatever.  Give me the pristine guitar with those features and I'll try NOT to beat it up.

Yes, if the guitar was right I would go for it. But any artist endorsement/signature/replica would put me off. Even if it was my favourite guitarist, I would not like that one bit. 

[Sgt. Pepper]

1 hour ago, merciful-evans said:

Yes, if the guitar was right I would go for it. But any artist endorsement/signature/replica would put me off. Even if it was my favourite guitarist, I would not like that one bit. 

Don't you own Les Paul one of the original signature models.

[merciful-evans]

3 hours ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

Don't you own Les Paul one of the original signature models.

My LP is a 2015 one with the scribbly scrawl that everyone detests with a passion. 

[Sgt. Pepper]

13 minutes ago, merciful-evans said:

My LP is a 2015 one with the scribbly scrawl that everyone detests with a passion. 

All my guitars say C F Martin 1833 on them except the Fender J Bass.

[Notes_Norton]

I never owned a Les Paul. I traded some of my Band-in-a-Box aftermarket software for an LTD Faux-Less-Paul 😉 and it is an OK guitar, but too heavy for me. I suspect a real Les Paul would be as well.

Actually the LTD was pretty well-made, the pickup switch was cheap and needed replacing, the wiring was nice, but the biggest flaw was the frets were too soft. I didn't like the over-wound pickups for the type of music that pays the bills for me, so I put some GFS Mean 90s and a Varitone on it.

When I played only one instrument all night, the weight was no problem. I even played a real Fender P Bass in a band. But now I switch instruments on the gig a lot, between sax, flute, wind synth, and guitar. That's where the weight gets me. Quick mid-song switches are the worst and by the end of the night, I'm more fatigued than if I put one instrument on and left it there.

Right now my tenor sax is the heaviest instrument I play on the gig. (I have a lawsuit era jazz bass at home, but I don't bring it to the gig.)

I appreciate the talents of many star players, but I'm not a fan, I'm a peer.

I've played sax with some very famous guitarists, and met many others when I was in the opening acts and when we were being wooed by Motown. Personally, I wouldn't pay extra money for their signature on my guitar. If I want a special guitar, I'll have the custom shop make one to my specifications (which I did when Parker was still in business).

That doesn't mean it's wrong to buy a signature model or even a relic. There is more than one right way to make music.

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

[Pinch]

Btw, is it just mine, or is nitro flaking/peeling off at the side of the nut common on LPs? 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Pinch

[mihcmac]

1 hour ago, Notes_Norton said:

I never owned a Les Paul. I traded some of my Band-in-a-Box aftermarket software for an LTD Faux-Less-Paul 😉 and it is an OK guitar, but too heavy for me. I suspect a real Les Paul would be as well.

Actually the LTD was pretty well-made, the pickup switch was cheap and needed replacing, the wiring was nice, but the biggest flaw was the frets were too soft. I didn't like the over-wound pickups for the type of music that pays the bills for me, so I put some GFS Mean 90s and a Varitone on it.

When I played only one instrument all night, the weight was no problem. I even played a real Fender P Bass in a band. But now I switch instruments on the gig a lot, between sax, flute, wind synth, and guitar. That's where the weight gets me. Quick mid-song switches are the worst and by the end of the night, I'm more fatigued than if I put one instrument on and left it there.

Right now my tenor sax is the heaviest instrument I play on the gig. (I have a lawsuit era jazz bass at home, but I don't bring it to the gig.)

I appreciate the talents of many star players, but I'm not a fan, I'm a peer.

I've played sax with some very famous guitarists, and met many others when I was in the opening acts and when we were being wooed by Motown. Personally, I wouldn't pay extra money for their signature on my guitar. If I want a special guitar, I'll have the custom shop make one to my specifications (which I did when Parker was still in business).

That doesn't mean it's wrong to buy a signature model or even a relic. There is more than one right way to make music.

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

Hmm, here is an LTD Deluxe EC 1000 selling used for $850 on eBay.

Not exactly a low end Les Paul style.. Or would you refer a low end Faded Gibson in this price range.

Edited March 29, 2021 by mihcmac

[jdgm]

1 hour ago, Pinch said:

Btw, is it just mine, or is nitro flaking/peeling off at the side of the nut common on LPs? 

Do you mean actually on (the side of) the nut?  If so, nothing to worry about.

If it's flaking around the nut slot, ah....not so good.

[Pinch]

12 minutes ago, jdgm said:

Do you mean actually on (the side of) the nut?  If so, nothing to worry about.

If it's flaking around the nut slot, ah....not so good.

Thanks. Yeah, it's on the side of the actual nut. I guess the flake will break off eventually. 

[Retired]

17 hours ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

He’s the guitarist for a band called The Roots and are Jimmy Fallons band on The Tonight Show.

Oh, Thanks Sgt. Yeah, that didn't sound right to me "The Actor?"  I should have asked Deb first I guess? I have never watched Jimmy Fallon's show but Deb watches it all the time. I salute you sir! Oops, Wait, Forgot, never salute a Sergeant and never call him  sir,  Sergeants work for a living right? LOL

[Retired]

15 hours ago, 01GT eibach said:

Here he is with his signature.  Cool SG without a doubt.

Cool, so that's him?  I do like those SG's. Guess I'll have to watch it once. 

[Retired]

2 hours ago, Notes_Norton said:

I never owned a Les Paul. I traded some of my Band-in-a-Box aftermarket software for an LTD Faux-Less-Paul 😉 and it is an OK guitar, but too heavy for me. I suspect a real Les Paul would be as well.

Actually the LTD was pretty well-made, the pickup switch was cheap and needed replacing, the wiring was nice, but the biggest flaw was the frets were too soft. I didn't like the over-wound pickups for the type of music that pays the bills for me, so I put some GFS Mean 90s and a Varitone on it.

When I played only one instrument all night, the weight was no problem. I even played a real Fender P Bass in a band. But now I switch instruments on the gig a lot, between sax, flute, wind synth, and guitar. That's where the weight gets me. Quick mid-song switches are the worst and by the end of the night, I'm more fatigued than if I put one instrument on and left it there.

Right now my tenor sax is the heaviest instrument I play on the gig. (I have a lawsuit era jazz bass at home, but I don't bring it to the gig.)

I appreciate the talents of many star players, but I'm not a fan, I'm a peer.

I've played sax with some very famous guitarists, and met many others when I was in the opening acts and when we were being wooed by Motown. Personally, I wouldn't pay extra money for their signature on my guitar. If I want a special guitar, I'll have the custom shop make one to my specifications (which I did when Parker was still in business).

That doesn't mean it's wrong to buy a signature model or even a relic. There is more than one right way to make music.

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

I don't know what all guitars weigh but looking it up, most fender Tel's weigh 8 lb's. and most Fender Strat's weigh 7 lb's.  Most Gibson Les Pauls weigh between 9 to 12 lb's it said.  So I weighed myself and did it again holding my Gibson Les Paul Standard Gold top. It weighed 7.5 lb's.   .5 lb's lighter than a Tel.  and .5 lb's heavier than a Strat.  .5 lb's is hardly enough to notice. Right?

[mihcmac]

11 minutes ago, Retired said:

I don't know what all guitars weigh but looking it up, most fender Tel's weigh 8 lb's. and most Fender Strat's weigh 7 lb's.  Most Gibson Les Pauls weigh between 9 to 12 lb's it said.  So I weighed myself and did it again holding my Gibson Les Paul Standard Gold top. It weighed 7.5 lb's.   .5 lb's lighter than a Tel.  and .5 lb's heavier than a Strat.  .5 lb's is hardly enough to notice. Right?

Yep, different woods an construction methods make the weight variable depending the exact model. My LP Standard is 9.5Lbs, my Swamp Ash Tele is over 10Lbs and my Ibanez 421 is about 11Lbs many closer to 12. By comparison my new Wilshire is under 6Lbs, what joy for my back.

Edited March 29, 2021 by mihcmac

[Retired]

6 hours ago, mihcmac said:

Yep, different woods an construction methods make the weight variable depending the exact model. My LP Standard is 9.5Lbs, my Swamp Ash Tele is over 10Lbs and my Ibanez 421 is about 11Lbs many closer to 12. By comparison my new Wilshire is under 6Lbs, what joy for my back.

The guitar I always had difficulty playing as a teen was my favorite, A 12 string Ovation celebrity plus. It had the large belly behind in the 60's and couldn't stand up playing it. It kept sliding around so I always sat down to play.  I noticed today, the Ovations have cut that back size smaller.

[merciful-evans]

14 hours ago, mihcmac said:

Hmm, here is an LTD Deluxe EC 1000 selling used for $850 on eBay.

Not exactly a low end Les Paul style.. Or would you refer a low end Faded Gibson in this price range.

I tried one of these 6 years back. I liked it. Appointments that really appeal are ebony fretboard & 24 frets. I would probably change out the pickups for something with lower output.

[merciful-evans]

12 hours ago, Retired said:

I don't know what all guitars weigh but looking it up, most fender Tel's weigh 8 lb's. and most Fender Strat's weigh 7 lb's.  Most Gibson Les Pauls weigh between 9 to 12 lb's it said.  So I weighed myself and did it again holding my Gibson Les Paul Standard Gold top. It weighed 7.5 lb's.   .5 lb's lighter than a Tel.  and .5 lb's heavier than a Strat.  .5 lb's is hardly enough to notice. Right?

I know Phil McKnight is very fussy about weight. He always queries weight before buying. 

I have 2 guitars that are entirely maple construction. They are much heavier than they look.

[Sgt. Pepper]

18 hours ago, Retired said:

Oh, Thanks Sgt. Yeah, that didn't sound right to me "The Actor?"  I should have asked Deb first I guess? I have never watched Jimmy Fallon's show but Deb watches it all the time. I salute you sir! Oops, Wait, Forgot, never salute a Sergeant and never call him  sir,  Sergeants work for a living right? LOL

Yep I was enlisted. The only time you salute an enlisted man is when he is on watch on the quarterdeck of a ship and has the authority to grant you permission to come aboard or has earned the Medal of Honor. Not surewhat the Army, AF or Marines do. I was in sea going services. Other than that we got to salute those smart guys that went to big fancy Military Academies or Warrant Officers. Some officers got a direct commission due to the college they had prior to the military, but it had to be a useful degree not like mine in Liberal Arts.

Edited March 30, 2021 by Sgt. Pepper

[Whitefang]

18 hours ago, Retired said:

Oh, Thanks Sgt. Yeah, that didn't sound right to me "The Actor?"  I should have asked Deb first I guess? I have never watched Jimmy Fallon's show but Deb watches it all the time. I salute you sir! Oops, Wait, Forgot, never salute a Sergeant and never call him  sir,  Sergeants work for a living right? LOL

I don't care how cool the guitars the show's band's guitarist has are, I'm not submitting myself to the torture of Jimmy Fallon just to look at 'em.

Tone, Sarge?  Yeah, but it seems to me that Clapton( for instance) managed to get the same tone regardless of which guitar he was playing.     And RETIRED?

Don't feel bad about the actor confusion.  For all we know, the ACTOR Kirk Douglas did play guitar.  Many in that field have other artistic endeavors than just acting.  And talents too.

Actors Michael McKean  and Christopher Guest( who were  David St. Hubbins and Nigel Tufnel in "Spinal Tap" respectively), do actually play guitar and did much of their own playing in that movie.  Also in the mockumentary "A Mighty Wind".  Comic actors Eugene Levy and Rick Moranis do too.    Along with Groucho Marx.

Whitefang

[Pinch]

19 hours ago, Pinch said:

Thanks. Yeah, it's on the side of the actual nut. I guess the flake will break off eventually. 

I'll try to turn it into a worry. Maybe tomorrow, too tired today. 

I'm assuming the nitro overspray doesn't stick to the nut material, or something. 

Edited March 30, 2021 by Pinch