What lessons have we learned in the past three years?

[SteveFord]

9 hours ago, zigzag said:

Well, your radio station would not have been reporting the actual events, d!ckhead.

Thanks for the laugh, I needed that.

[Big Bill]

On 4/12/2022 at 11:43 PM, zigzag said:

I was kinda hoping they had. This place is a sewer. Was hoping it might change. Not gonna, it appears.

This is not meant as a jab, just curious. Why do you only post when the threads turn into pissing contests? Why not contribute to the site during more civil posts?

[zigzag]

1 hour ago, Big Bill said:

This is not meant as a jab, just curious. Why do you only post when the threads turn into pissing contests? Why not contribute to the site during more civil posts?

I do. I posted on the trucks thread and on the strings thread. I like to acknowledge that I like the threads that interest me by posters who I enjoy. I've started deleting some of those posts. Why? I'm not sure. 

I don't like this place and what it has turned into. There are explicit rules against making political threads/posts, and yet they are the longest ones. By not discouraging them, it is the same as encouraging them. The ones that post in political threads the most are a small pocket of right wing nuts and anarchists that have pretty much taken over this forum. When fortyears suggests that the victim of the police shooting got what he deserves, that tells me all I need to know about him. There are very few posts that he makes that aren't reflective of his political agenda, even when the subject is apolitical.  I don't start fights, but I just can't let stupid or ignorant or ones that spread lies go unchallenged.  That's why I'm asking a moderator to permanently ban me, because I don't have the self-discipline to stay away. And I'll be in good company.

I hate this place now, but it is the first guitar forum I joined. I loved it back then, and I learned a lot. You know the forum was much better back then, because you were a part of it. It p!sses me off what this place has become, and I suppose I hope it'll get better and some of the great members from the past will come back.   And I love Gibson guitars.  

Edited April 19, 2022 by zigzag

[Whitefang]

22 hours ago, ghost_of_fl said:

 

And this is how the press pushes an agenda.  They didn't lie, they just left some details out.  You don't think a white guy has ever been shot by a black officer?  The reason you think that is because you never see it on the news, not because it never happened. 

You know, when(and if) the number of white guys shot(and killed) by black police officers(and for no good reason) matches or exceeds the number of white cops shooting(and killing) black guys(and for no good reason) I'll give your assertion some token consideration.  But lacking any proof of numbers only seems to show you're either making excuses for the wrong people, or just wanting to be needlessly contrary.

 

22 hours ago, jaxson50 said:

I find it a bit disingenuous when the only cell phone videos that go viral are of bad situations.  So many people are basing opinions on such limited and bias information that is intentionally skewed to produce the desired reaction. 

Sadly, they don't even realize they are being played.  There are literally thousands of interactions between police and citizens daily,  out of all of those interactions all that goes viral are the ones that go south.  The narrative then becomes, all interactions between officers and citizens are bad.  Which is ludicrous, slanderous and disingenuous. Purposely so. And it isn't just and American problem, 

I think most people are aware that really isn't the case.  But cell phone videos aren't taken when an officer is shown politely informing a driver his passenger side tail light isn't working, or just giving him a warning instead of a speeding ticket.  I mean, would YOU consider that "NEWS"?  But too, local news stations do cover "human interest" stories of some police or police groups organizing or participating in youth centered activities.  Like the Detroit police youth group that has ball games at the site of the old Tiger stadium.   And besides...

I don't think that Grand Rapids, MI footage was "skewed" in any form or fashion to "produce" any specific reaction. 

Whitefang

[Whitefang]

Well, I'll never know due to the video you posted(and on my screen at least) was a big black box telling me it was restricted.

Whitefang

[Whitefang]

3 minutes ago, ghost_of_fl said:

It's restricted from being being an embedded link.  Click "Watch on YouTube" and it should load.  

 

Did that.  Still got a big black box, but this time telling me to "sign in".  

Whitefang

[Whitefang]

Just now, ghost_of_fl said:

 

.  You will never get the entire story from a chart (which you have not been so bold as to post anyway). 

"Chart"?

I don't get any information from a "chart".  Nor from any internet source.

Whitefang

[zigzag]

I like Chris Rock.  And he's absolutely correct. But people make bad decisions all the time and for lots of different reasons, sometimes fatally bad. For instance, he made a bad decision to make fun of Will Smith's girlfriend. 

And ghost, your analogy about affluent people being more likely to be diagnosed with cancer if they have it seems to ignore the likelihood that most everyone in the US who has cancer is probably going to get that diagnosis eventually, though some may be dead by then.  What you probably meant to say is that more affluent people are cured of cancer because they can afford to get an earlier diagnosis. The devil is, indeed, in the details.

If everyone is lying then there is only the truth which you can deduce for yourself, which may or may not be truth. At some point you have to decide for yourself what truth is and who you can trust. But think about it, if twice as many whites are killed by cops (approx. 400/year*) as blacks (approx 225), going by the numbers, and Blacks make up less than 14% of the population, then that means Blacks are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by police as whites. (I'm not a statistician, but I think my math is right.) And the logic doesn't stop there. If that number is correct, there are many other considerations as to why that statistic may be true. Are there historical, cultural, socio-economic, emotional, or mental health issues that should factor into understanding the statistics? Numbers by themselves are useless unless we understand the reasons behind them.

* https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

Edited April 19, 2022 by zigzag

[zigzag]

1 minute ago, ghost_of_fl said:

And what you seem to ignore is the fact that some types of cancer are not terminal.  For example, I have been diagnosed with non-malignant melinoma.   It shows up on a screening, they cut it out and now you don't have cancer.   Some people never go for that screening and also never die from it. 

See. You're right. Damn the devil.

[jaxson50]

Chris Rock was right

 

[tx-ogre]

On 4/18/2022 at 11:13 AM, ghost_of_fl said:

 

And this is how the press pushes an agenda.  They didn't lie, they just left some details out.  You don't think a white guy has ever been shot by a black officer?  The reason you think that is because you never see it on the news, not because it never happened. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/07/03/police-black-killings-homicide-rates-race-injustice-column/3235072001/
 

https://www.citizensjournal.us/higgins-enough-of-the-lying-just-look-at-the-data-theres-no-epidemic-of-racist-police-officers-killing-black-americans/

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/theerant/the-real-number-of-unarmed-black-people-killed-by--t110592.html

Here are a few examples of the less than complete coverage of this situation.  I even threw in a link to USA Today, which can hardly be described as a puppet of the far right-wing conspiracy.  If you were to base your opinion on the vast majority of the media coverage, the number of unarmed minorities dying at the hands of law enforcement officers is well into the hundreds, if not thousands, every year.   When you factor in the millions of contacts between law enforcement officer and the public, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out the tripe being spewed by the media and certain politicians is pure crapola.  But then again, there are no consequences for them to spew pure, unadulterated lies.  Just goes with the territory.

https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/cbpp18st.pdf   I apologize for this link being dated information, but I couldn’t come up with any more recent data.

Another thing to be wary of is videos provided by media or social media outlets alone.  How many times has video “proof” been reported, and after a trial, the jury acquits the defendant.  How could that happen?  We have a video.  Well, as is often the case, the jury saw ALL of the evidence, not just that “cherry-picked” by the media and their minions.  The circumstances leading up to the incident, the incident itself, and after the incident.   Everything that happened before, during and after and not just the wishful thinking and propaganda of the media, certain politicians and their minions.  In other words, all of the facts in a fair trial.   Jeez, I hate it when that happens.
 

That was one of the first things I learned when I first started on the job almost 40 years ago.  Unlike the media, I didn’t have the luxury where I could hurl accusations of wrongdoing or illegality about someone without actual discernible proof and evidence.  Not rumors.  Not innuendo.  Not supposition.  Unlike the media who can claim their allegations are based on “anonymous sources” or cherry-picked video and nothing more, I had to go above and beyond to exhaust all investigative leads, including additional video, physical, forensic or witness evidence/testimony.  Because in a criminal case, there are these pesky creatures known as defense attorneys.  And if I had not completed a thorough and complete investigation, in other words, not had my ducks in a row, that defense attorney was going to chew me to pieces on the witness stand.  Not a pleasant experience.  Your average media puke could not survive that kind of scrutiny.

 

 

 

Edited April 20, 2022 by tx-ogre

[fortyearspickn]

18 hours ago, ghost_of_fl said:

And what you seem to ignore is the fact that some types of cancer are not terminal.  For example, I have been diagnosed with non-malignant melinoma.   It shows up on a screening, they cut it out and now you don't have cancer.   Some people never go for that screening and also never die from it. 

Yes - many survive cancer.  It is not the death sentence it use to be - due to early detection. I've had several of those skin cancers removed. See the Dermatologist 4x a year.   My wife had Lung cancer 7 years ago, one of 5 lobes removed and is doing fine- cured. She had Breast cancer 3 years ago, had the lump removed and is doing fine - cured.   We are extremely lucky (Blessed)  but sadly - most are not.  Still, cancer is #2 at 500K deaths a year - HEART Disease is #1 at 700K. 

[fortyearspickn]

ZZ - rather than ask to have yourself banned - there is a feature on this forum where you can block specific members posts.  I don't know how it works, but you might consider it.  I'd be happy and un-offended to be your test subject.   But first... 

 You wrote:   "When fortyears suggests that the victim of the police shooting got what he deserves, that tells me all I need to know about him. There are very few posts that he makes that aren't reflective of his political agenda, even when the subject is apolitical. "

And you also wrote:  "Yeah, I've been guilty of getting in pissing matches, and I've never changed anyone's mind. But, I typically react to a person who bases their opinion on disinformation- disproven assumptions that people are so willing to make and spread... " alternative facts" as Kellyanne Conway put it. There is just so much of it everywhere, and so few people are willing to do the research."  Couldn't agree more.  

I'd like to offer a defense to your contention that I'm biased in some negative,  political way.    I did not mean to suggest that  the Michigan person got what he deserved.  That would be heartless by any measure.  My intent was to simply state  it was likely not a criminal act on the part of the police officer.  A sad result, but probably not one the officer was criminally (or in my opinion morally) responsible for.   Part of my reason for posting a counter to white fang's claim  that it was cold blooded murder was based on a similar case a couple of years ago.     I recapped it in this thread  back when white fang first brought up that recent Michigan shooting.   My 'bia's is based on a complete distrust of the media specific to that 2020 Atlanta case involving a taser a month after George Floyd.  The officer was fired, charged with murder and the media enflamed the incident   without reporting on the officer's eventually being exonerated.  It was found by the Georgia Bureau of Investigation to have been self defense and in line with the Atlanta Police Dept's own Manual.   For many examples like that -  I distrust the media and try to hold off on judgement until those we've entrusted to do investigations complete their work.     I do not know nearly enough about the Michigan shooting to say anything other than -  "Innocent Until Proven Guilty". 

So, I apologize if my posts are too short, or unclear or leave impressions I don't intend.   Like you stated, where I quoted you above, 'I typically react to a person who bases their opinion on disinformation - disproven assumptions.."    Me too.    I'm sure there are more things you and I agree on than we disagree. But - there will always be exceptions.  Take Johnny Dip and his ex-wife !    Peace. Out.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jaxson50]

At the risk of being painted with a broad brush as a racist I feel it important to interject one fact overlooked by the impassioned mobs that ran amok in the aftermath of the George Floyd case. 

There is no excuse for what the officer did  after he was called in to help subdue Floyd,  I am not offering any defense for that officers acts. But, Floyd could have complied with the first officers who arrived on the scene and he would be alive today. 

The officer who keeled on Floyd's head until he died was totally out of line. The other officers should have tried to pull him off. That is a given.  But Floyd bares some responsibility for the situation as well. 

Let's take a look at what Mr. Floyd did that brought the attention of the officers in the first place.

1, passing counterfeit 20 dollar bills. A felonious act. 

2. He resisted arrest. Claiming he was claustrophobic, therefore not wanting to get into the police car. (claustrophobia didn't prevent him from being in a car before the police arrived)

3. He had a cocktail of very potent narcotics in his system, cocaine, methamphetamine.

The tragedy could have been avoided altogether had Mr. Floyd made better decisions that morning. He had struggled with addiction for most of his life, as many of us have, I am not saying he deserved what happened to him, I have loved ones who are struggling with the same demons, some of them have lost everything, some have gone to prison, some have  cut themselves  off from those who love them,  choosing instead to hang with others who are addicted.  

This is very personal to me, it has struck very close to me.  I have dealt with close family members who cannot control themselves around narcotics, some have spent many years in prison or worse, lost their lives to it.

Our society has chosen a path forward that ignores the mental health issues created by extended use of powerful drugs and instead of providing health care placed the responsibly on the police to clean up after our failures because it is cheaper to incarcerate these people than it is to treat them. 

We are all at fault.

[Whitefang]

23 hours ago, ghost_of_fl said:

So you are going strictly by what you read on paper?  Which news publications? 

Local Detroit papers,  which since the '80's have been published under a joint operating agreement.  One, the Detroit News, leans right, the other, the Detroit Free Press, leans left.  And for example, in the case of the story about the Grand rapids police shooting, both are editorially similar.  And likely not "filtered" in any way.

And I did finally get to view that Chris Rock vid.

22 hours ago, zigzag said:

I

If everyone is lying then there is only the truth which you can deduce for yourself, which may or may not be truth. At some point you have to decide for yourself what truth is and who you can trust. But think about it, if twice as many whites are killed by cops (approx. 400/year*) as blacks (approx 225), going by the numbers, and Blacks make up less than 14% of the population, then that means Blacks are 2.5 times more likely to be killed by police as whites. (I'm not a statistician, but I think my math is right.) And the logic doesn't stop there. If that number is correct, there are many other considerations as to why that statistic may be true. Are there historical, cultural, socio-economic, emotional, or mental health issues that should factor into understanding the statistics? Numbers by themselves are useless unless we understand the reasons behind them.

* https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

Interesting.  But what your statistical link doesn't show is the difference(or similarity) in the number of unarmed,  non threatening whites shot and killed by police as opposed to the number of black men shot and killed under similar circumstances.  And again...

In the case of the Grand Rapids, MI shooting, the victim was chased, tazed, tackled and wrestled face down by the officer, and shot in the back of the head.  TWO autopsies verified it as the cause of death.  Not "filtered" in any way.

Whitefang

[Whitefang]

Oh, and this makes it OK?  

Whitefang

[Sgt. Pepper]

I've re-affirmed that people are a-holes.

Did masks work? We wore them and then. to eat, we took them off. So, I guess eating and drinking keeps you safe and you are immune to covid while food and drink are in your mouth.

[NighthawkChris]

1 hour ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

I've re-affirmed that people are a-holes.

Did masks work? We wore them and then. to eat, we took them off. So, I guess eating and drinking keeps you safe and you are immune to covid while food and drink are in your mouth.

lol yeah I  wondered about that...  What's the point of walking in the restaurant with one on I ask myself... 

[fortyearspickn]

6 hours ago, NighthawkChris said:

lol yeah I  wondered about that...  What's the point of walking in the restaurant with one on I ask myself... 

So they don’t need a Sneeze Guard over the salad bar. 

[Whitefang]

23 hours ago, ghost_of_fl said:

It's about as ok as when some redneck in Alabama pulls the same crap and doesn't come home to his family.  If that story ever made your 2  Detroit newspapers it would be a slow news day.   

Well, if it made any of the papers where YOU live( and hide that fact) feel free to post any access.

Oddly enough(or maybe not) it seems to me that it's usually the most shameless and militant bigots that complain that the news "always makes it about race".  

23 hours ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

I've re-affirmed that people are a-holes.

Did masks work? We wore them and then. to eat, we took them off. So, I guess eating and drinking keeps you safe and you are immune to covid while food and drink are in your mouth.

I'd say they worked as well as they could under certain circumstances.  But I still get amused thinking about those who wore masks, but never bothered to cover their noses.  I'm guessing their nostrils were packed with enough snot to make them feel safe.  Or had thick enough hair in them that they figured it would filter out any of the virus.  

Whitefang

Edited April 21, 2022 by Whitefang

[Californiaman]

I think a lot of these tragic instances you all are describing are always up to interpretation, especially when the narrative is to someone's advantage.  It is a shame that someone's poor choices lead to such tragic outcomes, but what is even worse is when people start spouting off about racial, economic, social, political, religious, and environmental justice because it fits their narrative.

 

[har_vie]

I have learned that we should live the moment. Don't wait for something be better than it is at present. The last three years are hard for many people. Taking into account the pandemic and wars, I can't imagine what could be worse. So I try to focus on present. I'm working, but I let myself have great vacations, I still study, but I sometimes delegate some tasks to https://www.topwritersreview.com/reviews/gradesfixer/ guys to have more free time for myself. I have a family and want to spend time with them, so do like this and don't wait big holidays to see them, etc.

Edited April 21, 2022 by har_vie

[jaxson50]

17 hours ago, har_vie said:

I have learned that we should live the moment. Don't wait for something be better than it is at present. The last three years are hard for many people. Taking into account the pandemic and wars, I can't imagine what could be worse. So I try to focus on present. I'm working, but I let myself have great vacations, I still study, but I sometimes delegate some tasks to https://www.topwritersreview.com/reviews/gradesfixer/ guys to have more free time for myself. I have a family and want to spend time with them, so do like this and don't wait big holidays to see them, etc.

Har Vie. Thank you for what may be the best post on this thread,  it has been a rough few years,  and the bad news just keep a coming.  You offer a positive reaction to hard times, live in the moment,  free up time to spend with family and loved ones. 

Turn off the news!

Edited April 22, 2022 by jaxson50

[NighthawkChris]

Yes turn off the news!!! +1000000 I don’t pay attention to anything that isn’t 10’ in front of me these days. Ain’t a damn thing I can do about todays issues anyhow. 

[gdecantoo]

Great deal Har-Vie! Offering to check all my school work for only 13.99 a page! How can you do it so cheap in this day and age? Also are there currently any supply chain issues when requesting your service?