Legendarily exceptional guitars, or just legendarily awesome histories?

[sparquelito]

Jimmy Page’s 1959 Les Paul “Number 1”.
Bought it in 1969 from Joe Walsh.
Remarkable in that it has been used on nearly every recording session of Jimmy’s long and storied career since then.

Bernie Marsden’s 1959 Les Paul, “The Beast”
Marsden bought the guitar from Mark Henderson who had bought it from Andy Fraser, from the band Free. Fraser, in turn, had bought the guitar from Paul Kossoff, who had bought it from Eric Clapton.
Joe Bonamassa is fond of borrowing The Beast, and playing gigs with it.

Peter Frampton’s 1954 Black Beauty “Phenix” guitar, given to him by his friend Marc Mariana (after Peter’s ES335 plagued him with howling feedback during Humble Pie’s opening night at the Filmore West in 1970). Peter’s main guitar for many years, until it was lost in a plane crash in November of 1980, and assumed lost forever. The story of how it turned up 30 years later is both incredible and well known to all fans of guitar music.

The Eric Clapton/George Harrison red “Lucy” Les Paul.
Originally owned by John Sebastian, who sold it to Rick Derringer.
Rick’s dad didn’t like the original beat-up gold top finish and Rick wasn’t fond of the stock Bigsby. Rick took the guitar to Gibson to be refinished in a transparent red (like the Gibson SG’s of the day). The finish and stock tail piece caused the guitar to sound different to him, so he sold it to Eric Clapton, who later gifted it to George Harrison.

Peter Green/Gary Moore/Kirk Hammett 1959 Les Paul “Greeny”

Jeff Beck’s 1959 Les Paul, sold to him in 1968 by Rick Nielsen

Neil Young’s “Old Black”, sold to him in 1968 by Jim Messina

Mark Knopfler’s ………

So.
The question remains, are these legendary guitars really exceptional instruments, and vastly better than your Les Paul over here, and infinitely more ethereal and Heaven-sent than my Les Paul over there?

Or are they just normal guitars with interesting back-stories who fell into the hands of musicians who became celebrities, and were later used by accomplished celebrity musicians, and so certain exceptionally interesting legends were born?

Really.
How different can this collection of wood and steel and paint be from that one over there?

If The Beast were hanging on the wall at your local pawn shop, and you played it thru the nearest Peavey amplifier available, would it blow you away with its innate awesomeness?

Or would it to you, you not knowing the back story, sound like any other Les Paul?

Is my car any better because it was previously owned by the brother in law of actor Jack Nicholson?

Is it slightly less interesting because I bought it from a guy who bought it from a guy who bought it from the guy who used to play keyboards for Dexys Midnight Runners?

I’m gonna shut up now, and let you offer your thoughts and opinions.

😐

[Larsongs]

Some Manufacturers have made great Guitars for a long long time…

But, Regarding those Unicorn  Guitars… I believe no 2 Guitars are exactly the same.. I also believe sometimes things happen purely by accident.. Sometimes for better, sometimes for worse.

The early Gibson PAF Humbucker Pickups were wound by hand.. The Magnets, the wire & everything used to put those Guitars together were mostly made by hand or by machines that didn’t have microscopic tolerances like we have today…

We know that some PAF’s sounded better than others. Even if they were produced in the same factory, the same time, by the same people using the same materials.. Every Pickup maker has tried to replicate their versions of the perfect PAF Humbucker.. But, to date, none have duplicated some of those magnificent early PAF’s.. Why? Who knows?

Because of these occurrences of hand made things I believe once in a while a totally perfect combination was made that rendered, very rarely, some one of a kind Masterpiece Instruments..

I also believe that guys tinkered with their Guitars &, more than likely accidentally, came up with just the right combination of ingredients that also made spectacular one of a kind Guitars..

[merciful-evans]

6 hours ago, sparquelito said:

 

So.
The question remains, are these legendary guitars really exceptional instruments, and vastly better than your Les Paul over here, and infinitely more ethereal and Heaven-sent than my Les Paul over there?

No

Quote

Or are they just normal guitars with interesting back-stories who fell into the hands of musicians who became celebrities, and were later used by accomplished celebrity musicians, and so certain exceptionally interesting legends were born?

Certainly

 

 

BTW I don't know the story of Frampton's guitars 30 year absence. So I'm likely not a fan of guitar music? That's possible. 

[jdgm]

A bit of both.  The guitar 'landscape'  has changed completely since the 1970s. 

When HJ took over Gibson in 1986 the quality shot up and the guitars were easily as good as those  produced in the 50s.  That went on for at least 15 years and possibly longer, depending on who you ask.

Consider also the availability of wood then (1950s-60s) versus now, and the different gradings (and subsequent costs) of it which have come about due to to the growth and development of the guitar market.

So yes, when they were made the materials were far more plentiful and much cheaper; they were 'just' guitars, albeit very high-quality ones.   How and what they were used for is what has made them legendary IMO.

Edited May 16, 2023 by jdgm

[Murph]

All the cool stuff came from the 50's. Including me.

It was the work of the Greatest Generation. They took pride in their work. They wanted to work. They invented, designed and built iconic things from cars to guitars to refrigerators to buildings.

Having said that, those guitars didn't write those legendary riffs, nor did they pioneer tones and style.

That was done by people with a sound in their head.

 

[Karloff]

11 minutes ago, Murph said:

All the cool stuff came from the 50's. Including me.

It was the work of the Greatest Generation. They took pride in their work. They wanted to work. They invented, designed and built iconic things from cars to guitars to refrigerators to buildings.

Having said that, those guitars didn't write those legendary riffs, nor did they pioneer tones and style.

That was done by people with a sound in their head.

 

'55 Chevy. My dream car ...

 

 

[Larsongs]

I had a 55 Chevy.. And a 57 Chevy. Wish I still had them..

I also had a mid to late 50’s Les Paul & a 1959 ES-345..

I just listed the 4 dumbest things I Sold!

I’ve owned close to a hundred Guitars from the 50’s til now since then.. Most of them were & are  really great Guitars.. But, nothing I’ve owned or the hundreds, maybe thousands, of Guitars I’ve played since can compare to the late 50’s Les Paul & a 1959 ES-345 I owned.. I’ve  been chasing their Sound ever since.. If you’ve never owned a really great example of those Unicorn Guitars you really can’t know!

Are there Unicorn Guitars? Yes! Definitely. Is there hype? Of course.. That’s how you get astronomical Prices at Auction.. 

Did my 55 & 57 Chevy’s drive like a dream? No! Did they get great Gas mileage? No! But, they could today..

Edited May 16, 2023 by Larsongs

[Whitefang]

I go along with the belief it was who owned them that made them exceptional .

And I don't know the story behind Frampton's guitar's 30 year absence either, so now I too might have to throw out all my recorded guitar music.  And my guitars.  

Whitefang

[sparquelito]

 

[merciful-evans]

Well, evidently Mr Frampton believes in a mythical guitar. 

[merciful-evans]

5 hours ago, Larsongs said:

If you’ve never owned a really great example of those Unicorn Guitars you really can’t know!

 

Well you got me there. I never owned more than 25 guitars ever. However I agree that no two are the same and that means all bets are off. Anybody could claim anything about any or all of them.

Guitars could be made the same I think. I think its wood that makes for all the variation. Many players and luthiers profess to know about the properties of wood and how it translates to sound. They don't all agree however. So I think its sensible to take everybody's claims with a pinch of salt, until I share their experience. Its either faith or reckless thinking to believe another persons set of assertions.

I have been playing for 53 years though. Of those few guitars only 4 of them I know thoroughly; as I've used them regularly for decades.  Two of them sound beautiful but handle like a pig. To me sound always comes before handling. The other two sounded good but handled virtually perfectly. 

I heard Peter F talk so warmly about his pheonix (thanks Sparky). However I dont share his taste in tone/timbre. Probably that down to settings or maybe its the guitar itself. 

Bottom line: Its personal. Guitars & myths. 

 

 

[Murph]

I wonder how Joe Walsh had #1 in 1969?

I'm sure there's an insane story about it.

[sparquelito]

21 minutes ago, Murph said:

I wonder how Joe Walsh had #1 in 1969?

I'm sure there's an insane story about it.

https://www.facebook.com/premierguitar/videos/joe-walsh-on-selling-jimmy-page-his-1-les-paul/3122830147951200/

[Larsongs]

Given the same model of any Guitar. No 2 pieces of wood are the same. Some Necks feel better even though they’re the same Necks.. Some Pickups sound better even though they’re supposedly the same Pickups.. Most often they don’t even weigh the same amount. Even though they are supposedly the same Guitars…..

That’s modern Guitars made with Computers & C&C machines.. They were even more different in the 30’s, 40’s & 50’s….

Like I said earlier, I’ve never played another Les Paul or ES335, ES345, or ES355 that compared to the mid 50’s LP & 1959 ES345 I used to own.. I’ve been chasing their Sound ever since. I never should’ve sold either of them. I’ve played 100’s of Guitars, maybe more, ever since & have bought & sold more Guitars than I can remember.. I have a few very good LP’s & a very good ES335 but as good as they are they just don’t sound quite as good as those two 50’s Guitars I used to own… 

Edited May 17, 2023 by Larsongs

[rct]

It's just a guitar.  If you didn't know all the stuff about it it would be either a nice example of an old guitar or just an old guitar that maybe wasn't that great.

I have played quite a few old guitars that were just that, old guitars.  Starting back then, when they were only 15 years old.

Guitars are functional objects that perform well or don't, and they happen to be beautiful things to look at.  All the rest is guitar players making stuff up in their heads.

rct

[kidblast]

Like good old Chet said when he was told his guitar sounded great..

Puts guitar down, and says "how does it sound now?"

[Whitefang]

Y'know, the vid that Spark posted only had Pete talking about the "Frampton Comes Alive" LP.  But when it ended, among the array of clip choices you're given I found this.

Kinda explains more about it.

And another question concerning the linked story of Joe Walsh selling Jimmy page his first Les Paul:

If, as Joe claims Jimmy said in '69 that Les Pauls weren't available in England, then how did Mick Taylor get his Les Paul in '67?

Whitefang

[Sgt. Pepper]

I think you could give _______________________________________ (add your favorite guitar superstar's name in the space), 5 different guitars picked out at random and he/she/it/they,  would make them sound like they play and get good sounds out of it. Page, Beck, Hendrix, Clapton ect didn't get invited to the Secret Sanctum Of Fender, Gibson, Martin, Guild, PRS ect and were told these are the really good ones the public will never get access to, and given any instrument they wanted. They acquired them like us. Buy buying and trading them. I'm sure some are given free guitars. Sure some had custom guitars built, but if I gave my guitar to Jimmy Page he would sound like Page playing it.

Gilmour's, now Jim Irsay's Black Strat, was bought off the rack after their gear was stolen on tour, and it was just a Strat that was there. You could have bought it if you got there before Dave did. Dave's once again,  now Jim Irsay's D-35, was bought on the street, outside a guitar store, in NYC off a guy who offered to sell it to him.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Sgt. Pepper

[merciful-evans]

2 hours ago, rct said:

It's just a guitar.  If you didn't know all the stuff about it it would be either a nice example of an old guitar or just an old guitar that maybe wasn't that great.

I have played quite a few old guitars that were just that, old guitars.  Starting back then, when they were only 15 years old.

Guitars are functional objects that perform well or don't, and they happen to be beautiful things to look at.  All the rest is guitar players making stuff up in their heads.

rct

Yes.

Music is the objective. A guitar is one tool for making music. It just happens to be more interesting than a speaker cabinet. 

[Karloff]

I always told myself if I ever win the lottery I'd track down Roy Buchanan's '53 Telecaster "Nancy" . I saw him 1st time when I was 14. unbelievable.

does Irsay have that one too ?

Edited May 17, 2023 by Karloff

[Twang Gang]

I think the player tends to make a legendary guitar more than the wood used.  We all know each guitar is different and certainly once in a while you run across a special one that sounds and feels great when you play it.  But it probably won't sound the same if you hand it to your buddy to play.  So for me, the moral of the story is to always keep trying guitars and if you're lucky you will find the one that really speaks to you.

[Sgt. Pepper]

3 hours ago, Karloff said:

I always told myself if I ever win the lottery I'd track down Roy Buchanan's '53 Telecaster "Nancy" . I saw him 1st time when I was 14. unbelievable.

does Irsay have that one too ?

I have no clue about Roy’s Tele. I just know he (Jim) bought the Strat and D-35 when Dave had his going out of business liquidation sale a few years back. What’s a few million for a rich football team owner? Probably like me spending a 20 dollar bill.

[ksdaddy]

Roy had a few Teles. I saw one up for sale a few years back but it wasn’t Nancy.  I heard Nancy went to a Japanese industrialist. I’m friends with Roy’s daughter. The only keepsake she ended up with was an empty case. 

[rct]

I saw a '51 Roy had, a NoCaster,  a true CLF guitar.  That thing was dope.

rct

[Karloff]

11 hours ago, ksdaddy said:

Roy had a few Teles. I saw one up for sale a few years back but it wasn’t Nancy.  I heard Nancy went to a Japanese industrialist. I’m friends with Roy’s daughter. The only keepsake she ended up with was an empty case. 

Thnx for letting me know,  that's a shame.