Thoughts on Mean Time Between Failure of vacuum tubes and parts availability

[Sheepdog1969]

I recently read two separate, yet defiantly related articles, about vacuum tubes and tube amplifiers that seemed concerning. The first article detailed the ever diminishing number of companies, globally, who produce vacuum tubes, and how demand far exceeds production capabilities. The second article detailed the "Mean Time Between Failure"/lifespan of a vacuum tube, and that tubes in a tube amp may need to be replaced every 3 years based on regular use.  (My research has found that vacuum tube life expectancy should exceed 5,000 to 10,000 hours https://www.guitarmeet.com/guitar-amp-care-when-to-change-your-tubes/#:~:text=On average%2C tubes can last,less from your vacuum tubes.  ) Obviously, these two articles raise a scary scenario. If vacuum tubes need to be replaced every three years or so, based on the usage data provided above, AND since replacement tubes seem to be in short supply, are tube amps really worth the money? By no means am I questioning  the awesome tonal quality of tube amps, but what good is a pricey tube amp if it fails in less than a decade and no tubes are available to get it running again when that happens? Interestingly, I have NEVER heard anyone I know complain about this issue, nor did I even think about this until I read these articles. Is it that tubes simply loose performance characteristics over time, rather than outright "dying", thus average/non professional tube amp owners never notice this issue? Do giging semi professional/professional  players really swap out tubes every three years? If so, do they suffer product availability issues and/or cost increases due to limited supplies? What is your experience?

[Twang Gang]

I gigged a Twin Reverb for close to 20 years before replacing the tubes.  More recently I bought a Rivera amp and gigged it for about 6 or 7 years before replacing the tubes, so I think the 3 year estimated is a little short.  Overall I don't think the tube situation matters much anymore.  The advances in signal processing for guitar is making amps of all kinds, digital or tube, obsolete.  Anyone who is hauling a big heavy tube amp around to play bars and such is behind the curve and wasting a lot of effort.  

[Karloff]

it all depends. I've swapped them out after 2 to 3 years and I've gigged with a Marshall 1/2 stack for 7 years with the original tubes. 

as far as Twang's comment about being behind the curve, I can understand that sentiment. I have a handful of friends that use the processors instead of a full rig. But I'm still lugging around a mini Orange stack. a TH30 head & two Orange 1x12 cabs. I don't like how processors sound. I don't think anything will ever sound as good as a tube amp with a SM57 in front of it. curve or no curve.  

[merciful-evans]

Before I went digital I was using old (mostly Selmer) gear for more than 20 years without ever replacing a tube. Those bits of kit were old before I got them too. They might never have been changed. 

[Big Bill]

53 minutes ago, Karloff said:

it all depends. I've swapped them out after 2 to 3 years and I've gigged with a Marshall 1/2 stack for 7 years with the original tubes. 

as far as Twang's comment about being behind the curve, I can understand that sentiment. I have a handful of friends that use the processors instead of a full rig. But I'm still lugging around a mini Orange stack. a TH30 head & two Orange 1x12 cabs. I don't like how processors sound. I don't think anything will ever sound as good as a tube amp with a SM57 in front of it. curve or no curve.  

AMEN BROTHER AMEN!!!

[SteveFord]

Tube life is more of a concern for stereo gear.

With future availability, who knows.  New Sensor is probably avoiding sanctions by selling to a neutral country and then exporting from there.

[merciful-evans]

A while ago, Phil McKnight fielded a question about tube supply drying up. He just said, a solution would be found, albeit a change in the tech. Cop out? I don't think so. I see his point. Its a massive market, and companies would be incentivised to find solutions. 

[Murph]

20 hours ago, Twang Gang said:

I gigged a Twin Reverb for close to 20 years before replacing the tubes.

Bingo.

Nobody ever changed a perfectly good working tube until Aspen Pitman wrote a book. The book's intent was to sell tubes.

I hoarded and collected nos tubes and was searching tv repair shops for American and British tubes for many, many decades to insure I had a lifetime supply. I did it.

My Blue Angel has a British made Mullard rectifier tube that was probably built in the 1940's. Still working just fine.

2 or 3 years is ridiculous.

[Karloff]

34 minutes ago, Murph said:

Bingo.

Nobody ever changed a perfectly good working tube until Aspen Pitman wrote a book. The book's intent was to sell tubes.

I hoarded and collected nos tubes and was searching tv repair shops for American and British tubes for many, many decades to insure I had a lifetime supply. I did it.

My Blue Angel has a British made Mullard rectifier tube that was probably built in the 1940's. Still working just fine.

2 or 3 years is ridiculous.

you're absolutely right. the times I've changed them after 2 or 3 years is because sometimes I just can't leave well enough alone.  more times than not I'll just swap out the 12ax7 in the V1 spot for a 5751.

[Murph]

My Blue Angel uses the EL84 and also 6V6 power tubes. You can use either, or combine them.

Even they never failed after years of use. I would swap them out of paranoia. 

6L6's can last a lifetime if you don't get real old....

Edited May 26, 2023 by Murph

[Larsongs]

I’ve got 6 Tube Amps that I use regularly, some daily.. I’ve had them for years.. Between 10-20 years.. I’ve had to replace a few Tubes due to them failing.. More often I’ve done Tube upgrades to improve the Sound. I haven’t had a problem buying them.. It is getting harder to pay for them! LOL! A good set of Tubes for a Fender PRRI, DRRI or a Twin are crazy expensive…

 

[Narwhal6]

I bought a late 70's twin reverb about twenty years ago from a coworker for $200. It needed work immediately and I think I paid another $100 to have someone get it functional again.

Since then it's been flawless, and I love the smell of it when the tubes get warm and the soft incandescent glow of them.

I also have a small Supro tube amp and even the AM radio in my old Ford is tube driven and still pulls in stations once the tubes are warmed up.

I don't know if I'll have to worry about any of them needing replacement down the road, but I think there will always be some kind of boutique type of manufacturer still supplying tubes as long as there is a demand for them.

[badbluesplayer]

New tubes have gone up about 100% since last year.  Russian tubes got super expensive real fast and lots of people have bad feelings about doing business with Russians.  That's Tungsol, Sovtek, Mullard and many others.

The Shugang factory in China burned down a couple years ago so they're gone.  There's a Chinese company calles Psvane who's making tubes and some Shugang people supposedly went to Psvane to help out.  I have a few 12ax7's but never checked them out. 

I believe that TAD is getting their tubes from Psvane now.  They used to come from Shugang.  I still have a few sets of primo TAD 6L6WGC-STR's and a couple of their 6V6's fomr the old factory.  I haven't tried the new ones from TAD yet.

JJ is still cranking out tubes and they're not tangles up in any political trouble, so they're still pretty cheap and available.  Quality is supposedly maybe a little sketchier than in the past.  I remember Bruce Egnater saying once that they had like 3000 JJ tubes fail in the field (in new amps) that had to be dealt with.  That was like ten years ago, tho.  I never use JJ's in an "elevated cathode" postition.  And I don't particularly like their tone.  Good for Marshalls and those kinds of amps.  Not so good for American sounding amps.

BTW, there's a Ukranian guy selling old mostly Soviet tubes and tone caps on ebay - I just bought some PIO caps from the guy and they're in who-knows-where right now.   https://www.ebay.com/str/radioindicatortubesstore

I always hated old tubes when I was fixing amps for a living.  You'd have to take the old tubes out, put new tubes in, fix the amp, and then try putting the old tubes back in and see if they're any good.  It's better when you can have the tube supplier stand behind the tubes so you don't have to deal with old ones.  But now I'm hoarding some old tubes and using a few in my amps.

There's no way to reproduce tube tone with a solid state amp.  And learning the feel of how to play into a tube amp is good practice.  So hoard those tubes...

 

 

[Murph]

5 hours ago, badbluesplayer said:

  But now I'm hoarding some old tubes and using a few in my amps.

  So hoard those tubes...

My collection of NOS American tubes came from years of going to old tv repair guys, radio guys, and just any old looking electronics type shop I'd see in my travels.

I started doing it in the 80's, so made some good finds!

I've still got an old box full of tubes "we" don't use. I'll get a pic up someday when I catch up.

[sparquelito]

Nice name for a band.

Defiantly Related.

🙂

[badbluesplayer]

It seems like most preamp tubes will last years and years as long as they doesn't go bad right away.

Power tubes tend to get microphonic after a certain time in combo amps.  They can rattle pretty much right out of the box or they can get rattled to death after some time.  It seems like, as long as they're nice and tight out of the box, they usually last a long time.  As short as a year?  Maybe if you're playing a couple hours every day.

[badbluesplayer]

Da - my tone caps from the Ukranian guy are arriving tommorrow.

конденсатори groovy з україни прибули до нас !!!

 

[badbluesplayer]

All my fancy caps from ukraine are pretty much bad.  Hey amerika, joke on you!!

[jdgm]

3 hours ago, badbluesplayer said:

All my fancy caps from ukraine are pretty much bad.  Hey amerika, joke on you!!

  Whaattt?  

You mean wrong values or just duds?

[badbluesplayer]

16 hours ago, jdgm said:

  Whaattt?  

You mean wrong values or just duds?

Duds.  They're rated .022 at 200v.  They measure like .035 to .055 uf, and they leak about 4 volts when I apply 9 volts, lol.  And there's some kind of residue on the original packaging they're in.  Looks like maybe some of the oil leaked out.  Good thing I only bought five bucks worth.  🙃

[SteveFord]

That's disappointing on many different levels.

[merciful-evans]

On 6/7/2023 at 6:51 PM, SteveFord said:

That's disappointing on many different levels.

So is finding a space in a multi storey car park

[badbluesplayer]

I found out something interesting about TAD tubes from Andy Fuchs.

I knew they were being made by Psvane, the Chinese manufacturer, but he pointed out that TAD tubes are made to different design specs on a separate manufacturing line than the Psvane tubes.  It's a separate operation in the same factory.

He said that the current quality of the Redbase series of tubes is excellent and he said something like there were only like four or five failures out of some thousands of tubes they used so far in Fuchs amps.  That's what he's using as an alternative to Russian tubes.

I've used the 12ax7, 12ay7 and 5751 preamp tubes, and they sound really good.  I haven't bought any power tubes from this factory yet, I still have old TAD 6V6's and 6L6's.  Not sure if they make 5881's.  I have some Tung Sol 5881's and I've always liked those.

[Karloff]

On 6/11/2023 at 9:37 AM, badbluesplayer said:

I found out something interesting about TAD tubes from Andy Fuchs.

I knew they were being made by Psvane, the Chinese manufacturer, but he pointed out that TAD tubes are made to different design specs on a separate manufacturing line than the Psvane tubes.  It's a separate operation in the same factory.

He said that the current quality of the Redbase series of tubes is excellent and he said something like there were only like four or five failures out of some thousands of tubes they used so far in Fuchs amps.  That's what he's using as an alternative to Russian tubes.

I've used the 12ax7, 12ay7 and 5751 preamp tubes, and they sound really good.  I haven't bought any power tubes from this factory yet, I still have old TAD 6V6's and 6L6's.  Not sure if they make 5881's.  I have some Tung Sol 5881's and I've always liked those.

good bit of info ... thanks.

[10PoundLester]

On 6/11/2023 at 7:37 AM, badbluesplayer said:

 . . . I have some Tung Sol 5881's and I've always liked those.

I have a set in my Vibro-Verb and they sound fantastic in that amp.