chase1410 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Hey Gibson lovers, I have a question for all of you...What do you think of all the Gibson pups and how they par up with all the boutique brands...( SD, Dimarzio, BAreknuckle, Sheptones, etc.) There's a big discussion and debate going on about this at MLP, and Gibson pups are getting alot of hate...I myself have always enjoyed Gibson pups, especially the 57's and Burstbucker 1 & 2's...What's your guy's thoughts and opinions about Gibson pups? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damian Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Gibson '57s are my favorite pickups......I'm not crazy about BurstBuckers, but I do use them....I like Gibby's P-90s as well....... Guitar Fetish makes some good pickups, as does BareKnuckles, and S.D. and Lollar....... Are any BETTER than the others ?????? I don't know, I don't care.....It's very subjective.............. I consider Gibson '57s Boutique Pickups..................For my Strats, I prefer slightly overwound TexMex PUs... For my Teles, I've stuck with stock PUs so far......I also prefer scatterwound pickups... My one Metal guitar has ceramic single coils........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I have are a pair of Seymour Duncan 'Antiquities' fitted in a Les Paul ' 1960 Classic' and am still struggling to dial them in tone-wise. They were already fitted when I bought the guitar and I wish they hadn't been swapped-in. There could be other factors at work - the pots and caps have also been changed - but I'm nowhere near convinced that they were an improvement over the original (and very much maligned) ceramics. I also have a pair of mid '70s DiMarzio Dual Sounds (which are essentially splittable Super Distortions). They are ok, I guess. A bit characterless/bland possibly? I'd take a pair of '57 Classics over either of the above sets. No question about it. P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrosurfer1959 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 To each there own I actually prefer gibson 57's in many of my guitars even over the boutique custom winds. If I'm gonna spend the time and money swapping out pickups when i do I often go to older Bill Lawrence wound Gibson pickups from the early 70's or something similar to that. I do replace pickups as needed and I have had good luck with pickups from Jon Moore and experiences that varied with a set of Holmes throwback AL2 while they were great sounding I'm just not sure not sure there $580 great. I do believe in swapping out the pot's and replacing the capacitors with something like Bumblebees but again to each there own if it sounds better to you than go for it. I think there great but many new players get convinced they need them so just don't feel like you need to spend an extra $1000 just so you can name drop with the very few who really do know or care. That said I'm having another guitar set-up with the P-Rail pickups a faded ES-335 I picked up I cant wait to try this guitar with that setup and all those variables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I've used everything, and I mean everything. Well, not in recent years, but really, I don't think anybody can do anything at all different with pickups. Joe Bardens were nice, had them in 4 teles and 1 strat at one point. But they are not quite as Fender-y as one would hope, so my Fedners have been sporting either stockers or Texas Specials for a long time now. I was lucky enough to have a lot of experience with real PAFs when I was a kid, so for humbuckers I have a pretty tough bar to reach. 57 Classics are the only thing that gets close, in my experience. I haven't used ALL of Seymours, I've had a few Lindys here and there and they were superb, and when I was a kid we called them Dimarzeros, so you can guess my experience with them. None of them have come as close to a PAF as their own 57 classics. I dislike 49x stockers as much today as I did then, so I put 57s in any new Gibson I get. Except my Splorer, it is long overdue for some pickups. It is fun to try and all, but it can get expensive and frustrating. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 This is curious... Even although the thread is, so far, only four replies old I find it quite surprising to read that each person that has responded stated a preference for '57 Classics... Perhaps Gibson knows more about how PAFs should sound than some folk on another forum suppose... P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versatile Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 IMO pickup choice is a very personal thing... All the Gibsons I've played have had excellent stock pickups People have their own aspirations tone-wise and amp choice has a huge influence on sound Gibson have little to offer in S/C pickups and are not competing with Rickenbacker and Gretsch, and obviously Fender.... IMX Gordon Smith fit some truly great pickups as stock to their range...S/C and H/B SD, Bare Knuckle, Kent Armstrong, TV Jones et al take their craft very seriously and rightly have many loyal users.... V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Actually Pippy, the way it was explained to me, the original PAFs that I used weren't that difficult to knock off. The problem was(is), there really is only one pickup sound that guitar players overwhelmingly prefer, and that'd be best exemplified by whomever ones favorite 60s or 70's rock guitar player using PAFs was. Unfortunately, when you invest in a pickup company, unless you are seriously niche'd like Joe or Lindy, you had better be makin pickups all day long. So Seymour has about 87 of the same pickup over and over again with just a tad tweak here and there, and I'm not saying that in a bad way, I've used and enjoyed his pickups too and Betts and a few others are diehard Seymour users, they must be good. If these companies actually made a single good consistent repeatable PAFalike like the 57s are, they'd only be makin and sellin one pickup, and there isn't a whole lotta money in that I guess. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Actually Pippy, the way it was explained to me, the original PAFs that I used weren't that difficult to knock off... I think you are right. I also think there is an awful lot of Snake-Oil available to buy these days! As was mentioned in the April 2008 edition of 'The Tone Quest Report' on the subject of original - and replacement PAFs; "...a few builders seem to have gotten as close as they can using available components and traditional design and construction techniques. There is no magic at work here - Seth Lover was an engineer; not a magician..." They also dispell the story that 'scatterwinding' is the authentic way to wind coils; "...the ladies at Gibson in the '50s were not using mysterious scatterwinding techniques; in fact, Seth Lover confirmed in a published interview that the wire was not guided onto the bobbins randomly 'by hand' but by an automated traverse..." Finally, they also note that; "...From 1957 to 1961 Gibson arbitrarily used Alnico II, III and V magnets in PAFs..." P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Any pick-up by Gibson from 74 to 83 are the best IMO.... The late 70's and early 80's diamrzios Super D's are nice pups. As for boutique I like the vintagevibeguitar and Curtis Novak pups Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I dunno. It seems to me that the pickup plays a major role, but we've had too much on here also about capacitors and internal wiring and pots, amp cords and amps... not to mention stomp boxes, etc. To me the deal is that you have to perceive what you're doing for sound as a whole. Again, I guess my own "big deal" has far more to do with playability and general quality of the chain. Never had a problem and never made a big deal out of it. In the old days "we" would mess sometimes adding pickups to archtops or flattops or replace the whole system in a cheapie that played well regardless. But I guess I never got that much into pickup replacement on grounds that if it ain't broke, take the instrument for what it is and make the best of the sound. That said... I can see a reason for various techniques by which one might add a piezo or to switch HBs to single coil sound or vice versa. It just never interested me enough to do such a thing to a nice-playing decent quality instrument compared to just buying another with different qualities but equal playability. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G McBride Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I have several Gibson Guitars. My favorites are my Les Paul Week #34 with 57s, 339 with same pick ups and 359 with same pick ups. I have burstbuckes, and P90 guitars. I have 490 /498 combo guitars and I love them all but my favorites are the guitars with the 57s in them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 A few weeks ago I did a pickup winding demonstration for a group of guitar players and teachers. While I was winding I took questions from the audience. One of the guys asked "As a boutique pickup maker, do you think your pickups are better than anyone elses?" My answer was "No" which seemed to shock a few people. So I explained that I don't believe there really is such a thing as a "bad" pickup. Pickups are no different than microphones. A ribbon mic that works well for recording your J-200 in the studio isn't likely to be of much use if you're trying to mic a 4x12 cab for a live show. A pickup that delivers the perfect tone for Chet Atkins might not be of much use to Jerry Only. The thing that makes one pickup sound different from another is design. By that I mean the power and shape of the magnets, the power, size and shape of the coil and its relationship to the magnetic field and the strings proximity to the pickup. That's it. It's not about the chemical makeup of the bobbins. Plastic is nonferrous and invisible to the pickup. It's not about "scatter winding". There is no such thing as a mechanical CNC winder that can wind perfect rows of 42AWG magnet wire at high speeds so all pickups are "Scatter wound" It's not about "aged magnets". Alnico loses less than 1% of its power every 100 years so the idea that old magnets have mellowed with age is bogus. There is no special secret pattern to winding wire around the bobbin to give it more righteous tone. All of that is just marketing BS that a lot of boutique pickup winders try to use to set them self apart from the hundreds of competitors they now have. Also... the idea that PAF pickups sounded amazing is simply a false legend. There were good PAFs and crap PAFs. To be honest the term PAF really applies to the process more than a product. These pickups were banged out by the dozens by ladies that were doing nothing more than assembly line work. They weren't specially trained tone gurus. They were laborers banging out widgets. That's all. When Seth lover was asked how he arrived at he perfect, magic number of 5000 turns of wire for each bobbin on the PAF humbucker he said "Well, the P-90 had 10,000 turns and 5000 is half of 10,000 so we went with 5000 turns." So... what is my advice on choosing a pickup? Avoid the hype. Always trust your ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 What Searcy said! P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SG FAN Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Gibson's 'buckers are pretty good in my eyes, especially the 57 classics. Hell, I even dig my 490r/498t combo in my SG Standard, but one day I'll probably swap them for 57 classic/57+. But I find Gibson's recent p90s to be lackluster, IMO Jason Lollar winds the best p90s known to man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Also... the idea that PAF pickups sounded amazing is simply a false legend. There were good PAFs and crap PAFs. To be honest the term PAF really applies to the process more than a product. These pickups were banged out by the dozens by ladies that were doing nothing more than assembly line work. They weren't specially trained tone gurus. They were laborors banging out widgets. That's all. When Seth lover was asked how he arrived at he perfect, magic number of 5000 turns of wire for each bobbin on the PAF humbucker he said "Well, the P-90 had 10,000 turns and 5000 is half of 10,000 so we went with 5000 turns." So... what is my advice on choosing a pickup? Avoid the hype. Always trust your ears. This part of your statement is where I'm going to disagree. Winding pickups is a meticulous job, and requires patience and a keen eye, which is why ladies were probably performing these tasks. We have certain delicate calibration processes that women mostly perform because of the detail and patience that is required, which men have trouble with. Also if you have read about, or have been to a diamond mine where they separate the diamonds from the cosmetic to industrial grade. It is usually women that perform these tasks. I would dare to say during that era, Gibson pickups were wound very consistently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chase1410 Posted July 1, 2011 Author Share Posted July 1, 2011 This part of your statement is where I'm going to disagree. Winding pickups is a meticulous job, and requires patience and a keen eye, which is why ladies were probably performing these tasks. We have certain delicate calibration processes that women mostly perform because of the detail and patience that is required, which men have trouble with. Also if you have read about, or have been to a diamond mine where they separate the diamonds from the cosmetic to industrial grade. It is usually women that perform these tasks. I would dare to say during that era, Gibson pickups were wound very consistently I've never looked at it from that perspective before...And that very much makes sense to me....I would certainly not have the patience or the "meticulous" mindset to do it consistently.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffster Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 I like Gibson pickups, The only reason I would swap them is for a completely different sound and it is usually related to power handling. For instance my Explorer has the super hot stock pickups, if I ever swap them it would be for something completely different. Or the burstbuckers on my R8, if I ever swap them it would be for something that handles more gain without getting muddy. My favorite are the Classic 57, my new SG has them and I love them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 This part of your statement is where I'm going to disagree. Winding pickups is a meticulous job, and requires patience and a keen eye, which is why ladies were probably performing these tasks. We have certain delicate calibration processes that women mostly perform because of the detail and patience that is required, which men have trouble with. Also if you have read about, or have been to a diamond mine where they separate the diamonds from the cosmetic to industrial grade. It is usually women that perform these tasks. I would dare to say during that era, Gibson pickups were wound very consistently I didn't mean to make it sound like any inconsistencies with late 50's Gibson pickups were due to their use of women as a labor force. Most of the major builders of the time used women to make pickups. Among the reasons was that it wasn't heavy or dangerous work and as you mentioned the detail involved bared a lot of similarities to those needed for sewing which women had already proven they were masters of. You say late 50's Gibson pickups were made "very consistently" but I think that might be a matter of perspective. I mean, they couldn't even keep the bobbins the same color but if you compare them to Fender and DeArmond pickups of the same period they are far and away more consistent and reliable. However when it comes to things like wire tension and number of turns the "Classic 57" is made far more consistently than the original PAFs. Some of the old PAFs had coils that were well matched. Some had coils that were not well matched at all. This is the result of inconsistent mechanical counters on the winders. Hell, some of the old winders didn't even have counters. They ran off timers. Seymour Duncan has a few of those old timer winders. Also, the ladies who wound the bobbins knew that if the wire broke 3/4ths of the way through the wind it would still work. No need to start over. Then there were the famous Peter Green PAFs with improperly installed magnets and I have seen two old PAFs and one old Patent Number humbucker with the coils phased wrong. There was actually a debate over one of about whether or not fixing it would kill it's vintage value... Like I said. To me, it's important to think of the PAF more as a process than a product, sometimes rendering great results, sometimes rendering crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This_Dying_Soul Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 I like my Gibsons just fine stock. For many years now, one of the things I go after when shopping for a guitar is something that sounds great without me having to mod it up with new pickups or anything. I'm also happy with the sound of the stock pickups in my Gretsch 5120, but might consider swapping out to some filtertrons for a more traditional Gretsch sound. The 490's in my SG sound great and get me all the classic SG tone's I'm after and are hot enough to get me some more modern sounds too. In my Les Paul Push Tone, I love the sound of the Burstbucker Pro's that came with it... the P94's sound good too but there's poor grounding or some sort of interference in my music room and so single coils hum like crazy in there. I wouldn't mind getting a set of 57 classics to pop into the Les Paul to see how they sound and if I like them enough I'd consider putting them in the SG too; but I'm actually very happy with how these guitars all sound with their stock electronics and hardware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnastynebr Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Good topic! Bottom line, a pickup is a magnet with some wire wrapped around it, so its difficult for me to believe there is anything majestic about an original PAF (Just sayin' ). Its pretty easy to find replacement pups if you know what you are looking for. Many companies offer online tools that help you find output levels, magnet materials, ext.... The issue is that there are so many producers doing similar designs, that its hard to know which one to choose. There are probably 100+ different alnico II PAF inspired humbuckers on the market that are pretty much the same thing. If every fan of the Gibson 57 started looking for a different pickup, they would probably find one they liked as much or better eventually. But if you like the 57, why waste the time and $ looking? The great thing about pickups is that they are easy to change, so why not play around a little? Sometimes its just fun to swap em out and get some new sounds, even if you like the stock pups better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Just for the record, I have 5 Gibson guitars right now and only one of then has non Gibson pickups in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonzoboy Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 I can't think of any pickups improving the sound of the pickups that came with my 65 John Lennon Casino,Custom Shop Epi Firebird V or my Epi Traditional Pro Les Paul.The Trad Pro sounds so much like PAFs that I'd be afraid anything else-no matter how good they're purported to be-would destroy the wonderful tones I get now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff-7 Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 I like Gibson's stock pickups, nothing at all wrong with them. My main player has BB2's and 3's with taps and overall it sounds really great. That being said I have been looking to put in some Bareknuckle Pickups, I really dig the tone out of a few of the models I have tried and will probably give them a go after my next amp purchase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 IMHO, Concerning consistency of PAFs etc... Is that when there are humans, machines, wire, magnets, etc... There will always be a degree of inconsistency due to multiple factors. It is hard to really clone anything especially with the tools and processes used during that time. To what degree of variance between vs percentage of total units produced.... Who knows???? Concerning 1 pickup vs another I think it is ultimately subjective to the players ear. You can definitely alter the sound of the guitar with different pickups. Choosing which one is right would depend on what you hear or don't hear tonally, dynamically, output, clarity.... the list goes on... with your setup and how you play. Personally I try to find pickups that make my guitars fairly consistent when I change from one to another. I don't like to have to completely re-tweak all my settings when I change guitars. A little tweak one way or the other is fine. So I tend to try to find pickups that compensate for tonality and dynamic response to bring it closer to the sound of my main guitar or If I want to get a different tone ( more classic rock, more metal, more blues etc..) then I try to again do it by replacing the pickup with a pickup that produces that tone again, with out having to completely change the settings on my rig. I have found different pickups that work well (for me) with certain guitars. I found that my old Charvel through my Early JCM800 sounded great with a Bill Lawrence XL500. I had a les Paul that worked well with the same rig with a Duncan JB. With my current favorite rig setup ( metro Amp JTM 45) Through 69 MArshall 4/12's with green back 25 watters and a new TS9 I find the Stock Gibson's in my SG Standard ( 498T and 490R I believe) sound ( to me ) better than any other guitar /pickup combo I have for this setup.... Just put a Duncan JB in my 1980 Explorer E2 and sounds like garbage unless I do major re-tweaking... But i bet it would sound great in one of my other guitars.... Just have to find the right combo that works... Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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