Gibson plants at nashville and memphis raided?

[milod]

Okay...

 

I hope to tone some of this down because discussion of who's green and who's not tends to be somewhat counterproductive in terms of bringing passions and running off at a tangent after a red herring.

 

The real question here, if what the Gibson news release states is anywhere close to being honest, has to do not with "illegal wood," but whether "legal" wood met a degree of finishing, aka "manufacturing," in India on otherwise perfectly legal woods. We've now a question of Indian labor protection laws, not trees.

 

Frankly I haven't the slightest idea how Gibson could have fingerboards "finished" in India and then sent here for guitars unless they controlled the factory one way or another.

 

Gibson claims, in effect, we've a matter of interpretation of Indian labor protection law as interpreted by a U.S. government regulatory agency, not a question of wood that is illegal for environmental reasons.

 

If the news release is correct, it would be a protective export barrier in India designed to protect jobs in India.

 

In short, the wood ain't at issue if the news release is telling it how it is.

 

So...

 

Anyone involved in, or around a regulatory agency or law enforcement agency, knows that anyone can be found doing something illegal if the enforcement agency is willing to split hairs. Anyone. Period.

 

Let's play devil's advocate and assume Gibson is guilty of all sorts of use of illegal imported woods. The question still arises whether it's appropriate to make a high visibility entry.

 

Police don't do that when they're arresting some bank officer for white collar crime in his bank office even if the bank has armed guards. Is a guitar factory that frightening to officers with a high degree of defense training? Or is a message being sent, whether appropriate or not?

 

It seems that every 10-15 years we have a repeat of such stuff, and it gets translated into political polemics. I think that's a mistake.

 

I think it's a matter of when things get tough in big organizations, power gets misused by individuals who don't care what effect it may have on others.

 

That's true in business as well as government. But I didn't hear anyone suggesting police had to defend against machine gun nests in the Memphis custom shop.

 

m

[zigzag]

Let's wait and see what Gibson says and what the Feds find... Innocent until proven guilty, no?

 

I wasn't suggesting guilt or innocence, but it is obvious that the government feels that Gibson was doing something illegal for what ever reason. I was speaking to the way that the raid took place.

 

It doesn't make sense to me, or anyone else, that fretboards should be finished in India, and you know that there must be some additional finishing required by Gibson in the USA. However, that is an Indian law, and I'm thinking that that is where the problem is (as m said).

[Thundergod]

I read that article at Gibson lifestyle and can't help but wonder... would Gibson (or any other big corporation) admit publicly that they broke the law? I don't think so, so I don't really buy their story.

[Thundergod]

BTW Ione possible explanation is, Gibson is working with the feds to make it look like Gibsons are hard to produce now and so they have to a) start costing way more (than they already ridiculously cost) or B) start moving production to china or india.

[Guest farnsbarns]

What is this bloody argument that spills into every thread. It's getting a bit much. Could you both (Tman and Fuzzy) add each other to your ignore lists and be done with it. I like you both but it really is a bit repetitive.

[Big Bill]

Thunder has it!!

 

 

 

Dance Lounge Lizards, dance.

[stein]

Attacking each other and is only going to get this thread shut down.

 

If someone does not feel this thread is important enough to at least make an attempt at keeping it up, please do not post in it.

[duane v]

I'm unapproving post that do not pertain to the thread topic... hint hint Fred and TMan

[charlie brown]

Well, we'll just have to see how this all plays out, I guess?

We're all speculating, at best. And, we all know how accurate

that can be?! LOL

 

CB

[Silenced Fred]

Sometimes the Feds just like to mess with the little guys, and take away what the little guys have, right or wrong, they will insert themselves because they are power hungry.

 

Trying to make themselves useful and say that their jobs shouldn't be taken away? Boy, this seems so pertinent right now.

 

Is that on topic enough for you?

[Thundergod]

Sometimes the Feds just like to mess with the little guys, and take away what the little guys have, right or wrong, they will insert themselves because they are power hungry.

 

Trying to make themselves useful and say that their jobs shouldn't be taken away? Boy, this seems so pertinent right now.

 

Is that on topic enough for you?

 

 

Did you just call someone here a Fed?

[milod]

If HenryJ is correct on the purpose of the raid having to do with labor law in India, we ought to recognize it's not about the environment.

 

My personal concern not just for Gibson but for all U.S. firms dealing in product with parts and/or raw materials from elsewhere is the mode of this literal attack on a business.

 

I'll wager Mr. J. could have been arrested, office computer files downloaded and pieces of wood taken to "prove" anything in the world without shutting down the business at gunpoint.

 

So it appears something else is involved here with somebody wanting to make a point that may or may not have anything to do with any alleged lawbreaking that functionally in this country at worst would be considered white collar crime.

 

I've been around arrests of folks accused of major embezzlement that got them major federal penitentiary time that didn't require drawn guns or shutting down the business where they worked.

 

My question is, "Who wants to make what point to whom." I'm not at all sure it's HenryJ and Gibson that are entirely the target for "the point." Frankly anyone who operates a small to medium size business in the United States who hears about this sort of thing should be shaking in their boots because they could be next. And that's a guarantee.

 

Note that regulators currently are under Congressional scrutiny. This certainly would be a good "show" that a horrid international criminal guitar maker, America's best known brand, can be taken down for sanding otherwise legal bits of rosewood. What comes out in court is irrelevant in that case.

 

But again, are the real targets every American small manufacturer?

 

m

[charlie brown]

I read something, this evening, about Border and Customs agents,

being part of the group that participated in the "raids." That,

may have been only related to the "International" aspect, of this...

but, it makes one wonder, what else could be, or is, going on as well???

 

"Armed," but holstered, may be SOP, in these operations..."guns drawn,"

upon entry, could indicate something else, entirely. Does anyone (here)

know, or have access to information, on which it was?

 

CB

[This_Dying_Soul]

I have to agree with other statements on this topic. it just seems fishy that federal agents with machine guns to move in and execute a warrant over some questionably obtained wood was necessary.

 

It's overkill, don't ya think?

 

...and the seizure is based on the interpretation of another countries laws?

 

whoever organized this raid better have done their research and got the Indian government to define what the law means by "finished by Indian workers". They certainly would look like a bunch of morons if they misinterpreted that law.

 

It makes more sense that they would expect the wood to be transformed from logs to rough boards before export and that Gibson or any other manufacturer would be allowed to take the rough boards and work it into whatever form they see fit.

 

It's things like this that drive companies to outsource their manufacturing... if Gibson wants to move manufacturing outside USA, I'm sure there would be lots of Canadians that would welcome a Gibson factory up North. :)

[S t e v e]

I have nothing constructive to add, so i wont...jus sayin

[zigzag]

It's things like this that drive companies to outsource their manufacturing... if Gibson wants to move manufacturing outside USA, I'm sure there would be lots of Canadians that would welcome a Gibson factory up North. :)

 

Wait 'til Obama sends in Fish and Wildlife SWAT teams to "annex" Canadia. We'll have no choice but to send jobs to India.

[Searcy]

Milod is right. This case has absolutely nothing to do with environmental issues or good stewardship of the planet. That's another topic for another day.

 

 

The claim by the Fed is that in 2009 Gibson was in violation of the Lacey Act. A crap bit of anti poaching legislation that is so broad and all encompassing that just about any America company that imports materials could be raided for "violations". Gibson has maintained that the only thing the U.S. Federal Government has ever suggested Gibson did that might have been in violation was to have imported fret board blanks from India that were not finished to a level required by Indian law. When Gibson have asked what level of finishing would put them in compliance with the Indian law no answer is given. No one has been arrested. No charges have been filed.

 

What I see is the U.S. Federal Government using the Lacey Act in a way that it has never been used before to harassing Gibson on behalf of the Indian Government. To what end? I don't really know. Neither the U.S. or Indian governments are suggesting that Gibson shouldn't be able to buy this wood and use it on their guitars. Only that they didn't spend enough money with Indian firms before importing it. I believe those firms are lobbying the Indian government to pressure on the U.S. government to use the Lacey Act to convince Gibson to contracting with them to not only cut the fret board blanks but also do the inlay and binding and rough fret work. Why? More money for Indian firms. But Gibson wants to do those things here in the U.S. because it prides itself on it American Made status so they don't want to just roll over.

 

This is purely speculation on my part mind you but it is how things seem to work these days.

[Andy R]

Milod is right. This case has absolutely nothing to do with environmental issues or good stewardship of the planet. That's another topic for another day.

 

 

The claim by the Fed is that in 2009 Gibson was in violation of the Lacey Act. A crap bit of anti poaching legislation that is so broad and all encompassing that just about any America company that imports materials could be raided for "violations". Gibson has maintained that the only thing the U.S. Federal Government has ever suggested Gibson did that might have been in violation was to have imported fret board blanks from India that were not finished to a level required by Indian law. When Gibson have asked what level of finishing would put them in compliance with the Indian law no answer is given. No one has been arrested. No charges have been filed.

 

What I see is the U.S. Federal Government using the Lacey Act in a way that it has never been used before to harassing Gibson on behalf of the Indian Government. To what end? I don't really know. Neither the U.S. or Indian governments are suggesting that Gibson shouldn't be able to buy this wood and use it on their guitars. Only that they didn't spend enough money with Indian firms before importing it. I believe those firms are lobbying the Indian government to pressure on the U.S. government to use the Lacey Act to convince Gibson to contracting with them to not only cut the fret board blanks but also do the inlay and binding and rough fret work. Why? More money for Indian firms. But Gibson wants to do those things here in the U.S. because it prides itself on it American Made status so they don't want to just roll over.

 

This is purely speculation on my part mind you but it is how things seem to work these days.

 

Hmmmm I guess India isn't content with being the support call center of the world..

[Searcy]

Hmmmm I guess India isn't content with being the support call center of the world..

 

[charlie brown]

Hmmmm I guess India isn't content with being the support call center of the world..

 

 

Maybe, they sent the swat team, to the wrong address?

 

CB

[ShredAstaire]

[TommyK]

I worked for a corporation which manufactures internal combustion engines. As such the EPA is REAL interested in their output.

 

Engines have to pass a battery of operations tests designed by the EPA. The manufacturer was cited for failing the test. When the company investigated the test, the EPA's lab changed the test, essentially, so that the subject engines would fail. No notice was given of the change prior to the change, The manufacturer was not given a chance to modify the engines to attempt to pass. The EPA levied a fine. The company began the process of contesting the test, (lawyers and lots of money). The company eventually backed down in order to avoid the cost of litigation. They paid the fine, it was cheaper.

 

Yep, it was cheaper THIS time. But they opened the door to further extortion.

 

You don't win litigation like this, you bankrupt your opponent.

[TommyK]

...

Note that regulators currently are under Congressional scrutiny. ...

 

For the record The Director of USF&WS serves as an appointment by, an at the discretion of, the President.

 

Gibson Raid 1: 2009

Gibson Raid 2: 2011

[milod]

Tommy...

 

Yup. It's the same with other regulation too. I watched a new manufacturing facility for my community go down the tubes forced by a guy who lost all appeals but kept pushing under EPA regulations long enough that the corporation ran out of the venture capital window for some 75 jobs in a community of 5,000. He's still proud of the fact that he killed the project even though all his complaints were disproved.

 

One guy gaming the system.

 

Add the type of activity you alluded to and... then we wonder why there's not more job creation in the US.

 

m

[zigzag]

I'm afraid we have entered into a political arena that may end up in some deletions if we are not careful, but I will say this about that. Like so many government agencies, the EPA was started with good intentions, and they have been involved in overseeing some very good legislation. Unregulated, corporations would have this country looking more like China. Sorry, but I couldn't leave that one alone.

 

And, btw, The USF&WS is part of the Department of the Interior.