capmaster Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 Well, this thing actually started with checking guitar cases, but I just can't pull cases off the shelf without playing all the contained instruments before putting them back This way yesterday I played my two Gibson USA LP Standard and my LP Traditional one right after the other in a manner comparable to a shootout. However, I didn't realize before I played the second one. All the body backs and necks are mahogany, everything else is as shortly described below. If applicable, the differing switching options remained unused. My 2011 Quilt Top with modern weight relief, super-long tenon, 60's neck, Coração de Negro fretboard with 12" radius, and BurstBuckers 1 & 2 always had lots of upper treble range only transduced by tweeters. From the start her midrange was conservative with low levels of shrill, edgy frequencies, in particular the D5 overtone coming from the G3rd's 3rd harmonic. This overtone is infamous for giving an open Em chord a flavour of Em7 unless you attack the strings exactly at the 19th fret. Since nearly two years this tone comes up gradually on this LP. She still is my LP with the best note separation for broken chord picking, but her tone is getting denser with time. Then I played my 2012 Standard Plus with an obviously flat sawn maple top with crazy figure, modern weight relief, super-long tenon, 60's neck, rosewood fretboard with compound radius, and BurstBucker Pros. I was astonished how small the difference between her and the Quilt Top LP had become. The Plus Top still is edgier with more midrange and less treble, but the level of the D5 went down with time and is lower now than that of the Quilt Top. Fundamentals and lows in general are about as strong as with the Quilt Top but less apparent due to the fat midrange. Finally the 2013 Traditional with solid body, quartersawn maple top, short tenon, late 50's rounded neck, rosewood fretboard with 12" radius, and '57 Classic/'57 Classic Plus pickups. This guitar had always been the "shouter" of the bunch, blowing out screaming mids at searing levels and such lots of sustain that they last out many fundamental notes. The D5 is so much quieter than before that she puts out one of the cleanest open Em among all my guitars via magnetic pickups - this frequency affects chord structures much less when transduced through piezos since these contain the entire string sound, not just segments like with magnetic pickups. Funny, but this Traditional had an extremely loud D5 in particular last year as I described here: http://forum.gibson.com/index.php?/topic/129432-dramatic-temporary-change-of-a-guitars-resonance/ There were no changes except for a tiny truss-rod adjustment of the Quilt Top in late summer. I listened to my playing as I do mostly without any amp, EQ or FX simulation except for a little ambience. The two amp and speaker sound programs I used for high-gain tones remained unaltered since at least 2011, and I use the same headphone since 2010. I think the only subjects that undergo changes are the maple tops and their behaviour towards back and neck. None of my guitars consisting of heartwoods exclusively showed any audible changes over the years. Those made from sapwoods do, and those combining sapwoods and heartwoods sometimes do it to a vast extent. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merciful-evans Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 What do you think? I think you have damned fine ears! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Scales Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 You did what now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eracer_Team Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 I think you spend too much time alone in a room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deeman Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 I'm still not convinced, but if you like the way it sounds then great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdgm Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 If you will excuse me Cap - please clarify: "I listened to my playing as I do mostly without any amp, EQ or FX simulation except for a little ambience." I know you have piezos on all your electrics, surely they would give you the most accurate acoustic information on this? You also must have taken into account the fact that humbuckers cancel out some harmonic frequencies, and this might subjectively seem to boost others - I'm still not clear on whether you were plugged in. And are you saying then that these tonal variations over time are due to changes in the maple tops? My own LP is all-mahogany (no relief) '56 spec which was the year before they started maple tops I think. However I love the supposedly darker sound and it has P90s too. What I can tell you is that my LP sounds much thicker above the 12th fret than my mahogany L4S, I think this is entirely due to the thicker body and neck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 Honestly I think that one of the things you are hearing is your own change in preference and taste over the years... When we are early on in this journey we don't have the experience to really know so we go for stuff we are familiar with.... So for me being an 80s teen I went with pretty heavy distortion and didn't even think much about tone, that actually only happened when I joined this forum :). As you move a long and you want your playing to get better and your sound to get better with that you start to experiment and in doing that you open up the doors as such.. All of a sudden theres a million options to try and it gets confusing... (ignorance IS bliss) And I do think we get a bit caught up in all of these details... While its interesting to discuss and is why we are here... What you could be hearing could be any number of factors that could effect the sound... Solder oxidises, pots get worn in.. The wood has had time to stretch and acclimatise to where ever the guitar ends up in the world.... maybe the bridge posts wernt quite all the way down and with tension from the strings its pushed them fully down with time so is connecting better with the guitar, which is probably unlikely but you just don't know. Donno.... I would say though that if wood the does age and that does have an effect, I reckon it would take longer than a few years... More like ten or twenty... Unless you live in a particularly dry or humid part of the world.. That probably would have an effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 I'm envious, Cap, that you can even hear such subtle changes! 200 watt Marshall Stacks, in my youth, probably destroyed my ability to hear such fine distinctions. And, I still have pretty good hearing, all things considered. Especially compared to a lot of my (same age) friends. So...??? CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ess Posted November 4, 2016 Share Posted November 4, 2016 Hahaha... I really didn't think anyone would fall for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparquelito Posted November 4, 2016 Share Posted November 4, 2016 There are a lot of variables at play here, when comparing acoustic (perceived) tone of a case-bound solid-body electric guitar from one moment to another, months later. If you will indulge me, I will list them. Ambient changes in: Temperature Humidity Barometric pressure Local white noise levels Electromagnetic noise levels Street noise House noises (TV on or off in next room, shower running in the other chamber) Human player changes in: Age Emotional state Ear wax accumulation Prescription medications, and associated physiological effects Alcohol consumption Cranial sinus condition Fatigue levels Practical changes in: Time of day Guitar string age Guitar tuning and intonation I wouldn't care to either support or dismiss the effect of age on guitar tone-woods in all of this, really I wouldn't. But it's just one of many, many possible variables, in my objective, scientific opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted November 4, 2016 Author Share Posted November 4, 2016 I think you have damned fine ears! I think it's just the sound engineer approach to tone I already had before I started playing guitar. I'm sure everybody is able by nature to hear that out, it is just about mindset and attitude. You did what now? I just listened to what happened to the guitars with time. I will switch to different guitars for certain songs. Sound controls can't alter note development on a guitar. I think you spend too much time alone in a room. That's very probable. While doing so I tried to do something useful and helpful. The reason for this accidental LP shootout has been CB's hardcase topic. Otherwise it would have happened during some track recordings as usual. I'm still not convinced, but if you like the way it sounds then great! Well, over the years my Quilt Top LP develops a more typical LP sound, quite different from the SG attack/LP sustain behaviour she had in mid-2013 after buy although built in late 2011 yet. I take the sounds as they come and am curious about the forthcoming sonic developments. If you will excuse me Cap - please clarify: "I listened to my playing as I do mostly without any amp, EQ or FX simulation except for a little ambience." I know you have piezos on all your electrics, surely they would give you the most accurate acoustic information on this? You also must have taken into account the fact that humbuckers cancel out some harmonic frequencies, and this might subjectively seem to boost others - I'm still not clear on whether you were plugged in. And are you saying then that these tonal variations over time are due to changes in the maple tops? My own LP is all-mahogany (no relief) '56 spec which was the year before they started maple tops I think. However I love the supposedly darker sound and it has P90s too. What I can tell you is that my LP sounds much thicker above the 12th fret than my mahogany L4S, I think this is entirely due to the thicker body and neck. There are piezos in about a quarter of my guitars, in seven of twenty-seven, to be exact. None of the respective three LPs is among them. Of course I do evaluate the tone of the hybrid guitars via piezos, too. They all include sapwoods, and they all change in their younger years they are still within. To my experiences sapwoods seem to undergo significant changes during the first ten to fifteen years after the instrument was built. A few of my guitars and basses are long past this period, but I wouldn't dare to generalize something from a single instrument of each build. I didn't own any instrument with top and back from different solid timbers before 2012. Meanwhile there are eight of them, and they are the ones that show the fastest and most significant changes. In two cases, the only one with two sapwoods, a Fender Strat with maple on alder, and my LP Traditional, there happened changes that turned back within several weeks. In short, solid sapwoods obviously do change. The physical-chemical processes are left to chance and slowed down massively through drying. Heartwoods are long dead when the tree is felled, and virtually nothing happens. Sapwoods glued to each other may cause internal tensions. Sapwoods glued to heartwoods may cause massive internal tensions. That's what I seem to experience until it either will come to an end or I will die. Honestly I think that one of the things you are hearing is your own change in preference and taste over the years... When we are early on in this journey we don't have the experience to really know so we go for stuff we are familiar with.... So for me being an 80s teen I went with pretty heavy distortion and didn't even think much about tone, that actually only happened when I joined this forum :). As you move a long and you want your playing to get better and your sound to get better with that you start to experiment and in doing that you open up the doors as such.. All of a sudden theres a million options to try and it gets confusing... (ignorance IS bliss) And I do think we get a bit caught up in all of these details... While its interesting to discuss and is why we are here... What you could be hearing could be any number of factors that could effect the sound... Solder oxidises, pots get worn in.. The wood has had time to stretch and acclimatise to where ever the guitar ends up in the world.... maybe the bridge posts wernt quite all the way down and with tension from the strings its pushed them fully down with time so is connecting better with the guitar, which is probably unlikely but you just don't know. Donno.... I would say though that if wood the does age and that does have an effect, I reckon it would take longer than a few years... More like ten or twenty... Unless you live in a particularly dry or humid part of the world.. That probably would have an effect. Most of my guitars have a quite predictable tone, others don't. Like the two maple-topped Fenders and my maple-topped Ibanez, the LPs of mine are among the latter. The Epiphone LP with her multipiece back is less affected, by the way. Sometimes I experience sonic surprises with LPs after just weeks. They are still nice in tune but sound quite different, and use of headphones makes small differences in room conditions negligible. Moreover, my L6S guitars - those made in 2011 - change very slowly and gradually, like my 1980's Ibanez instruments did and the Fenders with single-timber bodies do. Anyway, sometimes I would like to trade some of my analytical hearing in for better playing skills. :unsure: On the other hand, as soon as I'm sitting behind the mixing board again, I'm fine! I'm envious, Chap, that you can even hear such subtle changes! 200 watt Marshall Stacks, in my youth, probably destroyed my ability to hear such fine distinctions. And, I still have pretty good hearing, all things considered. Especially compared to a lot of my (same age) friends. So...??? CB I think you could do that, too. For sure your hearing is fine in the respective frequency range, circa 400...4000 Hz. I was quite stumped myself when I found out that my hearing did not fool me and indeed it was the LPs. As next I played two of my all-heartwood SGs, and they sounded like they always do. A Fender FR Strat of mine with alder body, maple neck and rosewood board also sounded quite like about two weeks ago, and her changes over the years happen very, very slowly. No sound surprise at all. Hahaha... I really didn't think anyone would fall for this. Well, I guess you ignore it all by adapting your hearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted November 6, 2016 Share Posted November 6, 2016 No controls or any of that kind of stuff? :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted January 29, 2017 Author Share Posted January 29, 2017 No controls or any of that kind of stuff? :unsure: Sorry for having overlooked your post until now. Just the volume control of the headphone amp. All other controls and all emulations were bypassed. The guitar out was fed to the headphone amp always using the same cable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
american cheez Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 all i know is, when i play my LP, i either get razor blades flying from the speaker, or rose petals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 all i know is, when i play my LP, i either get razor blades flying from the speaker, or rose petals. In my case you'd simply need to replace the word 'speaker' with 'audience'. Pip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twang Gang Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 Cap - I think I'm with you on this. I haven't analyzed as closely as you did here, but I have noticed changes in "tone" with solid bodies over time. Some of it could be attributed to other things that sparquelito mentioned as well. I think most of us would agree that acoustic guitars "open up" over time as the wood gradually dries so I don't see why solid bodies can't change a little too, even though acoustics are more about moving air and solid body electrics are more about the pickups. Funny though your experience as a sound man. I currently play with a drummer who built one of the first all digital sound studios in Los Angeles in the 80s and who is an excellent sound mixer. But for him everything has to be digital and guitar players looking for their "tone" drive him crazy. He has a good ear as I'm sure you do - but different people certainly will hear different nuances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted March 31, 2017 Share Posted March 31, 2017 I DO hear a difference, in one (especially) of my SG's. My '61 "Satin" reissue, is noticeably brighter, than the other 3, all of which have the same pickups ('57's), as the "Satin!" I attribute that difference to the fingerboard material. The "Satin" has a "baked Maple" finger board, whereas all the other's have Rosewood boards. They are all the same age, within months of one another. And, even so, are still recent incarnations, and not of "Vintage" age. So, it will be interesting how they do age, tonally. By "Brighter" I mean it has a noticeable "spank" to the tone, whereas the other's are "warmer" or even slightly "duller" (not in a bad way, just different), in tone. As to my Les Paul's....the biggest difference, to me, is the pickups! My '80 LP Custom, is the mellower one of the bunch. The '76 Deluxe, with mini-humbuckers, is the brightest sounding, as one might expect. The 2000 "Classic," and more recent Classic Custom, are pretty much the same, tonally. Those two both have the Classic '57 pickups. So....??? CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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