Myths and missconceptions

[jmendoza]

So, you make a change to your Paul guitar by putting in Sprague orange drops and now it's the cats meow, right?

Or you got rid of those cheapo Asian import pots in your Epi and now you are the tone-master and volume king.

Your buddy spent $150 putting in some NOS Bumble Bee caps in his 1959 LP and now claims it has come alive.

You replaced an original blown lead PAF humbucker on your 59 Paul with a brand new one from Gibson, but now it does not sound the same.

 

Well, those old bumble bees are magic, right? Those asian pots are crap, they kill the tone, and they don't make the new pick-ups the same way they used to....sounds framilliar? These are some of the biggest myths going on out there backed by subjective hype and impressions and have absolutely no measurable basis in fact. All this is due to a fundemental lack of understanding of electronics theory, which like music theory, is quite complicated and daunting to most, especially the uninitiated. The majority of players, and luthiers alike are bamboozled by the shroud of magic and mysticism surrounding the world of electronics, mainly because it's something that you cannot see or easily measure without some very sophisticated and specialized test equipment. So without actual qualified laboratory analysis, guitar techs, luthiers, and many shadetree do-it your selfers come up with all sorts of crazy explainations. Some are based on empirical results, hands on experience, some are educated guesses and most are pure conjecture.

 

What you are really experiencing is the degradation, and variation of electronic components over time. Like everything else, they can, and do wear out. Some components go bad due to use, but most go bad due to age, they drift and change as their internal composition and characteristics age over time. I repair vintage transitorized radios, and tube guitar amps, and aside from the tubes and transistors themselves, its the capacitors and pots that consistantly need replacement. Over the years, caps have gotten much better than the ones they made in the pre-war era through the 1950s, but they still go bad. Magnets still fade, so pick-ups age and their sound changes. Some custom pick-up manufacturers offer "aged" magnets, and some of them will re-wind your old pick-up so it will sound the same as you other matching pick-up. Pots do wear out with use, but quality ones will last longer.

 

Electric guitars are different because of the electronics aging, and this affects them far more than the wood aging when amplified. Pick up magnets fade with heat and time, so they will also become mellower. Lower grade tone caps, especially the earlier tubular ones from the 1950s will become leaky with age. A capacitor's oil filled and wax paper dielectric breaks down and this changes the capacitance and therefore the roll-off frequency of the tone circuit, changing the tone response. Todays newer film caps are far better constructed and sealed, so they tend to fair better and not change as much as the early capacitors did. Herein lies the myth about how much difference putting in bumble bees or orange drops caps made to a guitar. In reality, the guitar had leaky old caps, and that is why the new ones made such a difference. Alternatively, the replacement cap may have been a different value than the original, which makes a huge tone difference. Also caps can vary widely in value as they have tolerance ratings from +/- 10% to +/- 20%, and this tolerance variation makes a big tone difference that nobody ever talks about.

 

People put too much stock into the myth about tone and volume pots with regards to who made them. It is true that the taper (logarithmic, exponential, linear and audio taper) does affect the amount of response per degree of rotation, which can be the difference between a wide and easily adjustable range, or all the adjustment being within 10-20 degrees of rotation, but that is the only real difference. Pots all use carbon resistive elements, and until they wear out from use, the perform equally in that respect and do not affect tone. What will affect tone is the wrong value of pot (250K where 500K is stock) or the wrong taper (linear taper instead of audio taper, or a worn out pot. I think many people are fooled into thinking it was the brand of cap, or pot that made a big tone difference, when it really was a leaky cap, the wrong taper or value of pot, or a worn out pot that was the culprit.

 

So, if you replaced an import pot with say a CTS, or a Allen Bradley (USA) and noticed a difference, you had a worn out pot, or possibly the wrong taper, or value. This then is the source of many myths and miss-information, as most luthiers know very little about electronics other than how to solder and follow a wiring diagram. And to the luthier's credit, if they have the right parts to start with, this is all they really should need to know.

 

This is not meant to put down guitar techs, luthiers, and musicians, as their field of expertize generally does not cover being an electronics engineer. What is is meant to do is shed some light on what actually happens to components and why changing them can somethimes make such a huge difference. You can now see why a leaky cap, or an old pick-up (weaker magnet) will still work and play in a guitar, but when replaced can drastically alter the tone and character of your sound. Put another way, it's not that a bumble bee or orange drop possesses some magic mojo in and of itself, but rather that when you replace a leaky cap, or one of the wrong value with a the correct value, it can seem like magic, when in reality, you have just done a repair and didn't realize the old part was going bad. Replacing a linear tone or volume pot with an audio taper style (regardless of who made it) can be the difference between having a full range of tone control or the pot acting like an on/off switch with only two settings. If someone wired a 250K pot with a humbuker, going to a 500K will make the output and volume increase quite noticeabley. It's not magic when the actual facts are known. But the guys selling $50.00 tone caps will never agree......because they rely on peoples ignorance.

[rct]

Do you know anything about cases?

 

rct

[jmendoza]

Other than me being a certified nut case? Some electronics types such as myself are "touched". LOL

 

Now, that said, it could be a touch of genius, or mania, it's a fine line they say. At any rate, just trying to offer some explanations of often missunderstood phenomina we experience with the electrics in guitars.

[Guest Farnsbarns]

Other than me being a certified nut case? All electronics types such as myself are "touched". LOL

 

I'm an 'electronics type' and I'm not touched by RCT's case obsession. I'm worried, a little amused but not touched.

[sparquelito]

Thank you for that, jmendoza.

 

I personally appreciate your offering, your expertise, and your style of writing.

 

Happy new year, and thanks again.

 

[capmaster]

Very good post, Jmendoza, thank you for your detailed clarifications. Over the years I witnessed some bandmates having "funny" experiences with cable capacitances, especially in conjunction with those dreaded true-bypass stomp boxes. It's not always easy to come through as a mythbuster.

 

As far as Les Paul guitars are concerned, the only timber I found and still find to be breaking-in with time seems to be a quilt maple top. Other than the other parts of a Les Paul guitar, quilted maple is flat-sawn.

 

All of my solidbody guitars and basses made of flat-sawn woods changed and/or are still changing in tone for several years. Guitars entirely made of quarter-sawn timbers didn't reveal noticeable tone-wise alterations with time.

[redcoats1976]

what i could really use is a "talent switch"

[Rabs]

You forgot to mention the real tone trick..

 

 

The curly guitar cable :P :)

 

 

Also as Gibson have proved ( apparently ) you also need molecular level period correct plastic bits for true classic tone.... and hide glue

 

Being slightly more serious.. We have of course discussed this many times on here (not exactly a new subject with us).. And it just seems that some people believe it and some don't... I say in the end who really cares.. Just do what you want and what makes you feel good. (wheres Donny? :))

 

I do personally however think there is a difference between PIOs and ceramics.... I just feel the PIOs sound a bit warmer, if that's true or just in my head im not too sure... but you certainly don't have to pay £50 for them cheaper ones do fine.

[rct]

I work with oodles, packs, covens of engineers. One is a dear friend and he makes stuff. Over the Christmas break I took home one of his latest single ended EL84 concoctions with a big ol' toroidal transformer on it, about 50 pounds of noise meat there. I wrung it out for a few hours, over New Years a bass player at the office will take it home and do the same. This guy used to make stuff for me when I toured the county with my American Band. Switches, sometimes cables, wired up one of my strats with a floating ground, that kinda nerdy thing.

 

The problem with engineers is that they do not understand that his amp played by me with one of my guitars at the volumes I am used to using and my own tomfoolery and physical approach to playing the guitar will make his amp sound entirely different from the way it sounds when that tool kid neighbor of his plectrums his way through the arpeggio he learned last week while sitting in front of Youtube.

 

They just don't get it. It's all elementary, it's all on/off 1/0 ohms/volts capacitance/resistance wattage/voltage, until some guy that knows what he's doing uses the thing, then all the theory in the world goes right out the window. I'm sorry, that's just the way it is.

 

rct

[Mr. Gibson]

So, you make a change to your Paul guitar by putting in Sprague orange drops and now it's the cats meow, right?

Or you got rid of those cheapo Asian import pots in your Epi and now you are the tone-master and volume king.

Your buddy spent $150 putting in some NOS Bumble Bee caps in his 1959 LP and now claims it has come alive.

You replaced an original blown lead PAF humbucker on your 59 Paul with a brand new one from Gibson, but now it does not sound the same.

 

Well, those old bumble bees are magic, right? Those asian pots are crap, they kill the tone, and they don't make the new pick-ups the same way they used to....sounds framilliar? These are some of the biggest myths going on out there backed by subjective hype and impressions and have absolutely no measurable basis in fact. All this is due to a fundemental lack of understanding of electronics theory, which like music theory, is quite complicated and daunting to most, especially the uninitiated. The majority of players, and luthiers alike are bamboozled by the shroud of magic and mysticism surrounding the world of electronics, mainly because it's something that you cannot see or easily measure without some very sophisticated and specialized test equipment. So without actual qualified laboratory analysis, guitar techs, luthiers, and many shadetree do-it your selfers come up with all sorts of crazy explainations. Some are based on empirical results, hands on experience, some are educated guesses and most are pure conjecture.

 

What you are really experiencing is the degradation, and variation of electronic components over time. Like everything else, they can, and do wear out. Some components go bad due to use, but most go bad due to age, they drift and change as their internal composition and characteristics age over time. I repair vintage transitorized radios, and tube guitar amps, and aside from the tubes and transistors themselves, its the capacitors and pots that consistantly need replacement. Over the years, caps have gotten much better than the ones they made in the pre-war era through the 1950s, but they still go bad. Magnets still fade, so pick-ups age and their sound changes. Some custom pick-up manufacturers offer "aged" magnets, and some of them will re-wind your old pick-up so it will sound the same as you other matching pick-up. Pots do wear out with use, but quality ones will last longer.

 

Electric guitars are different because of the electronics aging, and this affects them far more than the wood aging when amplified. Pick up magnets fade with heat and time, so they will also become mellower. Lower grade tone caps, especially the earlier tubular ones from the 1950s will become leaky with age. A capacitor's oil filled and wax paper dielectric breaks down and this changes the capacitance and therefore the roll-off frequency of the tone circuit, changing the tone response. Todays newer film caps are far better constructed and sealed, so they tend to fair better and not change as much as the early capacitors did. Herein lies the myth about how much difference putting in bumble bees or orange drops caps made to a guitar. In reality, the guitar had leaky old caps, and that is why the new ones made such a difference. Alternatively, the replacement cap may have been a different value than the original, which makes a huge tone difference. Also caps can vary widely in value as they have tolerance ratings from +/- 10% to +/- 20%, and this tolerance variation makes a big tone difference that nobody ever talks about.

 

People put too much stock into the myth about tone and volume pots with regards to who made them. It is true that the taper (logarithmic, exponential, linear and audio taper) does affect the amount of response per degree of rotation, which can be the difference between a wide and easily adjustable range, or all the adjustment being within 10-20 degrees of rotation, but that is the only real difference. Pots all use carbon resistive elements, and until they wear out from use, the perform equally in that respect and do not affect tone. What will affect tone is the wrong value of pot (250K where 500K is stock) or the wrong taper (linear taper instead of audio taper, or a worn out pot. I think many people are fooled into thinking it was the brand of cap, or pot that made a big tone difference, when it really was a leaky cap, the wrong taper or value of pot, or a worn out pot that was the culprit.

 

So, if you replaced an import pot with say a CTS, or a Allen Bradley (USA) and noticed a difference, you had a worn out pot, or possibly the wrong taper, or value. This then is the source of many myths and miss-information, as most luthiers know very little about electronics other than how to solder and follow a wiring diagram. And to the luthier's credit, if they have the right parts to start with, this is all they really should need to know.

 

This is not meant to put down guitar techs, luthiers, and musicians, as their field of expertize generally does not cover being an electronics engineer. What is is meant to do is shed some light on what actually happens to components and why changing them can somethimes make such a huge difference. You can now see why a leaky cap, or an old pick-up (weaker magnet) will still work and play in a guitar, but when replaced can drastically alter the tone and character of your sound. Put another way, it's not that a bumble bee or orange drop possesses some magic mojo in and of itself, but rather that when you replace a leaky cap, or one of the wrong value with a the correct value, it can seem like magic, when in reality, you have just done a repair and didn't realize the old part was going bad. Replacing a linear tone or volume pot with an audio taper style (regardless of who made it) can be the difference between having a full range of tone control or the pot acting like an on/off switch with only two settings. If someone wired a 250K pot with a humbuker, going to a 500K will make the output and volume increase quite noticeabley. It's not magic when the actual facts are known. But the guys selling $50.00 tone caps will never agree......because they rely on peoples ignorance.

They might assassinate you for spilling the beans.....

[jmendoza]

Quote:

They just don't get it. It's all elementary, it's all on/off 1/0 ohms/volts capacitance/resistance wattage/voltage, until some guy that knows what he's doing uses the thing, then all the theory in the world goes right out the window. I'm sorry, that's just the way it is.

 

Response:

 

Would'nt it be so nice and simple if the above statement were true? If so we would have long ago achieved the ultimate and there would be no more improvements. The reality is that there is a inseperable relationship between the practical and the theoretical, as one depends on the other.

 

The theory is used to design the desired sonic range of a given devices capability. How you use that device is what makes each guy sound different. Therefore, theory can't be tossed out the window; it is what enables the designer to achieve the types of sounds our musical instruments produce. Of course, your technique modifies and enhances this, but the design is the foundation you are building on. Look at Leo Fender, who was not a player, yet he was able to scientifically apply theory to produce some of the greatest guitars and amplifiers used today. Had he thrown theory out the window, this would never have happened.

 

The greatest breakthroughs in musical instruments have alway been collabrative efforts between players and builders. One does not occur without the other. Look at all the "signature" models of guitars as an example of what I'm talking about.

[AlanH]

Thanks, OP. Good post.

 

I'm interested in your take on pickups- imported vs USA vs vintage. Any myths there?

[merciful-evans]

Do you know anything about cases?

 

rct

 

I wrote an article/blog about cases once

[badbluesplayer]

I think that people want to stay in their brain's comfort zone and they adjust their thinking to stay inside the box. That's why some guys change their caps every time they get a new guitar. Some guys change the nut. Some guys don't want to change anything so they won't screw it up.

 

On the other side, old crotchety guys tend to say that everything they don't do is nonsense.... and they say that just to stay comfortable inside their box.

 

Staying inside the box gives you a constant stream of positive feedback from yourself and that's why people like that place. So whether you're a tinkerer or you like stuff just the way it is, it's usually a product of who you are and where your safety zone is.

[stein]

Much of the myths can be degraded parts, but that doesn't mean that's the explanation for everything.

 

And much of the time, "myth" is the word and explanation used until something is understood. Often times, something isn't accepted UNTIL it's understood or explained, even if it is proven.

 

Guitars are more subjective than stereo equipment. It's relatively easy to make a change to a stereo and hear differences, with a guitar, there is always the possibility that a change in sound is because it's being played differently.

 

Audiophile types are often accused of believing in snake oil or myth, and often do battle with engineers because they can't or won't acknowledge what they can't measure or understand. Often spending hundreds and thousands of dollars, accused of following trends and myths. But ONE thing about the audiophile folks: they DON'T spend money unless it makes an improvement. If those $1000 set of Silver and fairy dust cables don't make a difference WORTH the money, back to the dealer they go.

 

One thing for sure and repeatable (in the audiophile world): electronics must "break in", meaning, they don't sound their best until some hours of running signal through it. Usually about 40 hours. It almost always makes a huge difference.

 

Technically, we all know the to spite what a certain cap's value is, that only is a measurement of THAT particular frequency. Different cap's of different sizes and composition will react differently to the rest of the frequencies even if they are the same value. Different wire of different gauge, metal, and coating will have different properties. Different pots from different makers that use different composition in the swiper will be different.

 

How much difference? better or worse? They all contribute, but when we HEAR a difference, are we sure we know why?

 

With respect, I believe age and breakdown is a factor, but with guitars, it's down on the list.

[L8_4thesh0w]

<So, if you replaced an import pot with say a CTS, or a Allen Bradley (USA) and noticed a difference, you had a worn out pot, or possibly the wrong taper, or value. This then is the source of many myths and miss-information, as most luthiers know very little about electronics other than how to solder and follow a wiring diagram. And to the luthier's credit, if they have the right parts to start with, this is all they really should need to know.>

 

What if the guitar... for instance, an Epi, as you mentioned, is brand new? Are they using old pots and caps, or just the wrong tapers and values (and therefore, specs)?

[Searcy]

<You replaced an original blown lead PAF humbucker on your 59 Paul with a brand new one from Gibson, but now it does not sound the same.>

 

A "blown" pickup doesn't not make a sound and I would bet real money that no one on this forum has ever heard a 1959 Les Paul with a brand new Gibson pickup installed.

 

<Magnets still fade, so pick-ups age and their sound changes.>

 

Alnico magnets do not "fade" with age to any discernible amount. It simply doesn't happen.

 

 

[kidblast]

Do you know anything about cases?

 

rct

 

 

!!LOL!!

[stein]

<You replaced an original blown lead PAF humbucker on your 59 Paul with a brand new one from Gibson, but now it does not sound the same.>

 

A "blown" pickup doesn't not make a sound and I would bet real money that no one on this forum has ever heard a 1959 Les Paul with a brand new Gibson pickup installed.

 

<Magnets still fade, so pick-ups age and their sound changes.>

 

Alnico magnets do not "fade" with age to any discernible amount. It simply doesn't happen.

 

 

So, we have at least on myth busted on this thread.

[stein]

 

 

 

 

 

People put too much stock into the myth about tone and volume pots with regards to who made them. It is true that the taper (logarithmic, exponential, linear and audio taper) does affect the amount of response per degree of rotation, which can be the difference between a wide and easily adjustable range, or all the adjustment being within 10-20 degrees of rotation, but that is the only real difference. Pots all use carbon resistive elements, and until they wear out from use, the perform equally in that respect and do not affect tone. What will affect tone is the wrong value of pot (250K where 500K is stock) or the wrong taper (linear taper instead of audio taper, or a worn out pot. I think many people are fooled into thinking it was the brand of cap, or pot that made a big tone difference, when it really was a leaky cap, the wrong taper or value of pot, or a worn out pot that was the culprit.

 

So, if you replaced an import pot with say a CTS, or a Allen Bradley (USA) and noticed a difference, you had a worn out pot, or possibly the wrong taper, or value. This then is the source of many myths and miss-information,

 

 

<So, if you replaced an import pot with say a CTS, or a Allen Bradley (USA) and noticed a difference, you had a worn out pot, or possibly the wrong taper, or value. This then is the source of many myths and miss-information, as most luthiers know very little about electronics other than how to solder and follow a wiring diagram. And to the luthier's credit, if they have the right parts to start with, this is all they really should need to know.>

 

What if the guitar... for instance, an Epi, as you mentioned, is brand new? Are they using old pots and caps, or just the wrong tapers and values (and therefore, specs)?

Years ago, I did experiments changing out pots in a Strat to see if I could improve it, or hear differences using different pots. I used the same guitar, amp, being careful to have everything the same except for the pots.

 

I'll skip mast details, but just to say I could hear differences, but not so great that it would be noticeable if one were not listening and comparing. But definitely there. My OPINION was that the CTS pots I was using had a certain sizzle, or high end response compared to the others, and sounded more "Fender-like" according to MY opinion of what a "vintage" Strat SHOULD sound like.

 

Perhaps a surprise: IF there was pots that I could say were "better", it was the Japanese ones that were in the guitar originally.

 

I will also add, measuring pots, they don't always measure what they are supposed to, or what they say on them. Most of the CTS pots I was getting at the time, the 300k pots almost always measured higher, in the 350k to 450k ranges. 500k pots seldom measured over 500k, and often in the 400-500k range. Some overlap there.

 

I have to also note, this was about 10 years ago, and different "grades" of CTS pots were becoming available (around me).

[sixlicks]

I enjoyed your post . I tend to leave my guitars as I bought them . I got the guitar because I liked how it played and sounded .

[Roach]

pot always makes my tone sound better, and i have a case of being touched by myself.

 

but i do like the new cases from gibson they support the neck much better.

 

so is it audio, or linear, taper 500k ohm best? is one better for tone than the other for volume?

[Will I]

I have never been able to hear the subtle changes or drastic changes in changing out hardware. An in tune and tone guitar is all I hear.

[Roach]

I have never been able to hear the subtle changes or drastic changes in changing out hardware. An in tune and tone guitar is all I hear.

 

i have noticed a difference after replacing the internal electronics, pots and capacitors, on my 2000 LP Special w/hums and i got allot more range with the tone controls by switching from one type to the other. i forgot which was the switch from / to, audio or linear though. (maybe not more range but a smoother increase and decrease from 0 - 10. it prolly seemed like more was there cause the new capacitors gave it its bite back.)

['Scales]

Some days I play good, some days I play bad.

What the hell's going on???