Swicket Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 Ok, call me morbid, but I was looking at 50's and 60's J-45's over the weekend. Some beat up, some nicely cared for but well played, and one or two near mint. ALL of them had fairly significant lacquer crazing, especially on the top sheet. At what point will our 2000 vintage models start to do the same thing? 20 years? 30 years? How does this work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gearbasher Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 Abrupt changes in temp. (and humidity) are the main factors in "weathering". I have a '94 J45 that showed checking when the instrument was only five years old. I have a '92 Martin that still looks like the day it left the factory. So, you can't put a timeline on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drathbun Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 If you keep your guitar in a controlled environment for its lifetime, the finish would probably never crack or craze. It is the constant movement of the wood, the guitar swelling and contracting, over years that cause the finish to craze. Put a stiff coat on a soft, moving object and the stiff material is going to snap rather than give. At least that's how I understand it. Â You could make your newer guitar crack and craze by leaving it out in the cold and then bringing it into a warm house over and over. In a week you might have some checking happening. Â I'm no expert on the nitro finish, but I also think the age of the nitro has something to do with it as well. I know that a newer nitro finish "feels" softer to me than one that has aged a few years, so age might have a lot more to do with it. Perhaps a newer finish will flex with the guitar movement more than an old brittle nitro finish. Â Anyone? KSDaddy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daylightrobbery Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 I got a couple of beautiful laquer cracks the very first time I opened the case on a brand new J200 (it was winter and I was way too over-exited at finally geting it)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 Yeah, basically just a result of the stress put on the lacquer as the guitar body reacts to its surroundings. Â At one time, the folks at Gibson actually used to heat the Forbes/PPG lacquer they used to get it on in very thick and even coats as the finish would lose about 1/2 its thickness in the course of a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 I'm no expert on the nitro finish' date=' but I also think the age of the nitro has something to do with it as well. I know that a newer nitro finish "feels" softer to me than one that has aged a few years, so age might have a lot more to do with it. Perhaps a newer finish will flex with the guitar movement more than an old brittle nitro finish.[/quote'] Â I ain't an expert either but from what I have been told by guitar builders, most companies use a version of nitro that has various catalysts in it to make it dry quicker. Others use plasticizers to make the finish more durable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swicket Posted January 6, 2010 Author Share Posted January 6, 2010 Thanks for all of the info! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryp58 Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 As already posted, the finish checking comes from sudden changes in temperature and humidity by the wood in your guitar. The expanding and contracting causes the the finish to crack. I'm very careful to let my guitars acclamate to the ambient temperature in the room where I'm about to play. Usually about 10-15 minutes. With that being said, my SongBird is 9 years old now and has no signs of finish checking yet. I'm still treating my SJ TV like a new-born infant, so no chance of any wear or tear on it!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richpickin Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Hi I have a J-200 Sunburst 1990 which has lacquer checking on the sides. this guitar has been gigged all around the world and shows the signs but is full of character and is great to look and sounds great.  Does lacquer checking effect the value? or is it expected on guitars this age?  Do you ever get checking on the top and back of acoustic guitars?  thanks  Richpickin J200 Sunburst 1990 D-35 Martin 1976 D1A Collings 2000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksdaddy Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 I'd never turn my nose up at a guitar just because of lacquer checking. It's a natural aging thing. It's not consistent or predictable, it just "is". I'd never even use that as a bargaining tool. It doesn't detract from the market value in my eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gearbasher Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Hi I have a J-200 Sunburst 1990 which has lacquer checking on the sides. this guitar has been gigged all around the world and shows the signs but is full of character and is great to look and sounds great.  Does lacquer checking effect the value? or is it expected on guitars this age?  Do you ever get checking on the top and back of acoustic guitars?  thanks  Richpickin J200 Sunburst 1990 D-35 Martin 1976 D1A Collings 2000   I like the look of a guitar with checking. In fact, I want to purposely speed-up the process on one of my guitars, but I just can't bring myself to do it. It just doesn't feel right. As far as checking on the top and back. The tops are the most effected area on my guitars. And the sides on them aren't showing anything at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanfender Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 I have a J-200 that turns 20 years old this Saturday. It doesn't have a single finish check on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 You can use compressed air, like for blowing off your computer, if you were so inclined. Â I'm not...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
59Bassman Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 I have a ivory white LP Studio 2007. Never gigged sits on stand in my dinning room. Went to pick it up yesterday and have cracks in finish along the body joins... Â This is the 2nd I have had, the first, the finish broke around the tail stop posts and was replaced under warranty in under 6 weeks and at that time was just sitting in its case! Â Now, I know there is a fad for relic models and that over many years some finishes do craze, but 4 years? No smoke, direct light/heat and largely under used?? Â I think it is unacceptable to be honest. Am at a loss to know whether to leave it and let it get worse and have a refinish or give in to the fact that Gibsons really are sh1tilly made - no matter all the bollocks they spin you about cellulose being the best finishes... Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhanners623 Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 I've got a '98 J-45 that has fairly moderate finish checking on the top but nowhere else. I've taken great care of the guitar, but I live in Minnesota so extremes in temperatures are a way of life. Â I have wondered, though, what is is about the nitro finish Gibson uses that makes it more prone to checking than Martins or other makes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Morton Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 I have a ivory white LP Studio 2007. Never gigged sits on stand in my dinning room. Went to pick it up yesterday and have cracks in finish along the body joins... Â This is the 2nd I have had, the first, the finish broke around the tail stop posts and was replaced under warranty in under 6 weeks and at that time was just sitting in its case! Â Now, I know there is a fad for relic models and that over many years some finishes do craze, but 4 years? No smoke, direct light/heat and largely under used?? Â I think it is unacceptable to be honest. Am at a loss to know whether to leave it and let it get worse and have a refinish or give in to the fact that Gibsons really are sh1tilly made - no matter all the bollocks they spin you about cellulose being the best finishes... Â Â If it was sitting in the living room on a stand Ai would bet that It got dry then humid. Even electric guitars will move with humidity and temp changes and the joints is where the lacquer will check first. Unless the room where the guitar is stored is humidity and temperature controlled all the time any guitar will like change in that location. JM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 ....I think it is unacceptable to be honest. Am at a loss to know whether to leave it and let it get worse and have a refinish or give in to the fact that Gibsons really are sh1tilly made - no matter all the bollocks they spin you about cellulose being the best finishes... .... Â Nitro has remained a popular finish for acoustic instruments for many years because - the thinness of the finish is thought to be desirable in that there's less to get in the way of the wood vibrations; and because nitro is easily repaired - it's a solvent based finish that can by dissolved by it's solvent anytime after application. Â Cracking/crazing/checking from temperature and humidity changes is a well known issue of nitrocellulose lacquer finishes. Some manufacturers have added plasticizers to their nitro formulas to soften the finish and make it more resistant to checking. Â There also was the Nashville flood. Gibson had a lot of humidity problems to deal with. And then getting the factory back up to speed would've required a large stock of properly dried wood. I'm not so sure that all the guitar made since the flood have been made from properly dried wood. A while back, there were a few posts here about guitars with cracks (not checking) along the seams between the fretboard and the neck. As I recall, Gibson covered these under warranty as the wood was improperly dried. Â Your particular problem appears on the seam between differing wood species that also have differing dimensions - the resulting expansion and contraction differences can result in cracks along the seams. The thinner the nitro finish, the more likely you'll see "seam checking". With the popularity of "thin" nitro finishes in recent years (Fender included), I've seen this on many nitro finished guitars, not just Gibson models. Guitars with plastic or poly on them don't have this issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrorod Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 +1 ..BK! I like Nitro, and all of the wierd,organic things that it does. I feel like quick temperature changes have a large effect on nitro-finishes also! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
modoc_333 Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 a lot of people ask about this... and wonder why all of these old ones have the cracks, and fewer new ones do, even after several years. well, it's simple to me. when these guitars were bought years ago, climate control (central heat and air conditioning) wasn't as common in homes. where it was present, it wasn't as efficient as it is today. my father lives in a home built in the 1950s. Cooling is handled by window unit air conditioners, and heat is supplied by a gas furnace. he lives in the southern US. the feel of the air in the winter versus the summer is much more drastic than in my home which is more modern. my home generally feels about the same year around. his is always a little warmer in the summer, and much more humid. it's always colder in the winter and MUCH more dry. the result? the guitars at his house have checking. mine don't. that's my take on why more of the older guitars got checking in the same time lapse that more modern guitars have failed to crack. Â also, the finish needs to age, cure and harden to make them more likely to check. this happens more quickly if the guitar is left to air out. most high end guitars today (nitro) come with a nice hard shell case. back then this wasn't always true. and even the ones that did, had cases which weren't as close to air tight as their modern counterparts. so, those guitars were able to air out more, allowing the finish to harden and become more prone to checking as opposed to today. Â just my 2cents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jcn800 Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 I've actually got a 2019 new build Gold Top - and I've actually tried to induce lacquer checking and gave up! I've blasted it with a hair drier - then compressed air repeatedly - and absolutely nothing had happened... Am I right in thinking Gibson has changed the formula now, to prevent cracking? I do notice it's a very very soft finish - picks up dings and nails marks very easily.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 Zombie thread returns from the dead... Leave it out in the sun for a day, let it really heat up, then put it in your freezer. Actually, don't do this, unless you want crazing. But you can't really control this process, so you're on your own if you try it. If you want the patina of age, buy an old guitar. The finish on your new guitar is still curing, and will get more brittle over time all on its own. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slimt Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 (edited) crap. I wrote then deleted. Â Â Â Edited October 10, 2019 by slimt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted October 10, 2019 Share Posted October 10, 2019 The formula used, the manufacturer, and even the batch, can create variables from one era to the next. We all know the extreme '60s checking that can cover every square inch of a Gibson. But my more recent Gibson acoustics are all over the map. Some from the 2000s have virtually no checking (save for one little spot on the back-waist), to checking on the headstock (two), to finish issues around an ebony bridge (have seen many samples of this). But going into the early-mid 2010s, I have four acoustics that have retained a perfect finish.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holiday Hoser Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 (edited) Tom Murphy always used a regular razor knife blade on his relic LPs. Personally I used a heat gun and compressed gas as Murph had detailed. Hair Dryer not hot enough. Just be careful you don't roast it! I even used a razor to give it an imitation top crack. Edited October 11, 2019 by Holiday Hoser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted October 11, 2019 Share Posted October 11, 2019 Z O M B I E   THREAD ! You guys crack me up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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