Shnate McDuanus Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 So, in the contemporary world of music artistry, the question of synthesized instruments often comes up--often in the case of programmed drums, by way of drum machines, software drum trackers, etc.. It seems as though there are several camps of different minds, those mostly being: a) programmed drums are a useful tool for creating music, allowing for artists to create drum tracks with a consistent sound and can be useful in studio production and live performance alike in situations where hiring a real drummer would be impossible/impractical; b ) programmed drums lack artistry and don't require skill, ergo music using programmed drums is, in some way, flawed; c) programmed drums can be useful for a specific sound or can be used to produce decent demos, etc., but can't replace the quality of the real thing; d) programmed drums should only be used where a human drummer would be incapable of performing in a specific fashion, and should be used for when a real drummer is unavailable or incapable of doing what is required; e) drum machines are mostly for basement musicians, i.e. those working in electronic styles like techno or industrial, or those working in underground metal styles i.e. technical death metal (where, if the artist is independent, he may choose to use programmed drums to approach the technicality that he desires as opposed to using a human drummer) or black metal (where it's often done by one guy in his basement and lo-fi production is a large part of the scene/culture of the music.) I think I've covered a lot of the bases, but I want to hear your opinions on the matter. Personally, I like programmed drums, and I think, for the sake of art, there's no end-result difference in quality or listenability between programmed drums and "real" drums. I think that, since the eighties or so when drum machines really started to come into play, we've seen artists get increasingly more creative, interesting and tasteful with the ways in which they use drum programming, and that as technology has steadily improved over the decades, it's become noticeably more viable an option for independent musicians hoping to break through with music that they don't need to hire other musicians for. As a matter of fact, that's why I'm saving up for a copy of Cakewalk's Sonar software--so I can produce drum tracks virtually, and record other instruments in the same environment, without having to hire a drummer. This is because I'd like to record demos of my music so that, if the time comes where I want to re-record the tracks with a real drummer, or where I need a drummer for a live situation, I can use these demos as a reference tool. In addition, with programmed drums I could release the tracks as viable and complete musical pieces. As someone who likes to create on his own, I like the option of being able to program drum tracks without having to handle another musician and without having to consult with another musician whenever I want to produce a song. Thoughts? Oh, and here are some examples of great music that's been produced with drum machines: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7FPpuhwgvw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhTRyyPmSj4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fl00dsm0k3 Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 fake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shnate McDuanus Posted August 27, 2011 Author Share Posted August 27, 2011 Like everything in music the samples are getting so real and for a few years they have also added in the human value so that the beat is ever so slightly off; adding a human sounding mis-timing intentionally. For recording its so much easier, just like stated above. Rather than try to explain you can program it exactly like you want. I enjoy working with a real drummer live but when it comes to previous recordings a drummer program is a better answer to my recording problems. It also helps that the actual drum samples are off the charts now and its not just one canned sounding drum sample. Now if you want a drum sound like on LZ II; they have a sample just like that. The only thing holding back the home recording artist now is the amount of money they have to spend on such programs or devices. Exactly. Also, even if you wanted to sample the drum sounds off of previously recorded music (like sampling Bonham off of LZ II,) it's now a pretty easy task, so if you wanted your tracks to sound like Bonzo played them on his kit, you could do it in Renoise or Sonar, just by sampling the hits and tracking the samples. The technology's pretty amazing. Like you said, you can now use sample drums without quantization on them to get a more natural, "human" sound, without sacrificing individual artistic vision for the sake of (for instance) a drummer who can't play the parts you've written. It's true that investing in home recording equipment and software can be expensive to an independent artist, I think the investment is more than worth it in the long run. I mean, paying for a drum machine once and using it over the course of several years is definitely cheaper than paying a drummer over the same time frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoFrills Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 I see synthetic drums as another dynamic. There is a stigma linked to it in belief by musicians that since it is not created by a traditional instrument that it's not music and the person who creates it can get some grief for producing it. I've been give role in a project band to look after the synthetic side of things in progression to break away from the droll of metal in the community I live in. The band still has the typical sections within metal but now has me at the reigns of the programming side. I believe there is a stigma to being the person who is in charge of programming, by musicians and by non musicians as in the level of glory they get within the band. I use Sonar Producer 8.5.3 but the guts of my sound in general comes from Reason 4. I find the sound you get from what comes pre-packaged in Sonar too light for a heavy industrial sound in most cases. I just rewire into Sonar for recording purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brad1 Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 I've been a drummer for about 35 years. So you probably already know what I think. But I'll tell you anyway. They suck! It was very easy to tell in both those examples you posted that the drums were not acoustic drums recorded live. Yes, sometimes it is pretty close. But IMO it's not that hard at all to tell from any recording. Now, having said that, I will also say that "fake drums" have their place in the music world. Right now I live in an apt. and I'm not able to play my acoustic drums for recording. So I have been using a digital keyboard for my drums. Does it sound good? No. But it's better than no drums at all. It also depends on the type of music you are playing. Drum machines sound fine with some music. But I can't imagine recording a Punk Rock song with a drum machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 Back in the '70s Univox had a drum machine that worked well enough for a duo. I used one in those days and still have it. And that's mostly "pre-digital." (Not really, but...) I think for the Holiday Inn duo or even a heavily enhanced solo gig, it can work well enough. But it's hard to beat a four-piece with two guitars, bass and drums or guitar, keyboard, drums, whatever style you do. A decent drummer shouldn't just play drums, IMHO, in a band doing live shows. He's gotta be a real part of the show. He can do vocals, add a "look," add to between-song banter with both voice and a rimshot for emphasis... whatever. Also I feel really odd doing what I mostly do in solo gigs if I had a backing track and/or drum machine backing. So I don't use any of it. OTOH, a bass player friend of mine and I have kicked around the idea of a duo with a drum machine - even that antique Univox that's so easy to operate. m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S t e v e Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 i used to use the drum machine effect on my digitech rp350 while playing at home, it acted as a great metronome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shnate McDuanus Posted August 27, 2011 Author Share Posted August 27, 2011 i used to use the drum machine effect on my digitech rp350 while playing at home, it acted as a great metronome Unfortunately, in most cases metronomes make for lousy drum machines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bill Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 Drum loops all the way. A lot of them use actual drums recorded in the studio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dub-T-123 Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 I like them when they play off of the fact that they're synthetic as opposed to trying to imitate a real drummer. I really like the electronic drum machine sound but I think if you're going to try to imitate a real drumset you should just use real drums instead. I have a sweet drum machine app on my iPhone called funkbox. I like to run it through my pedals and loop it and stuff. I think it sounds cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturn Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 drum machines can't be beat..... ba dum dum Bur seriously, IMO they're OK for studio demos and stuff like that. I don't care for them live because it takes too much pre-programming or planning ahead. I also prefer the option of deviating from the original arrangement if we want. When we play live, whether it's a real gig or just jamming for fun, we almost never play a song the same way twice. With a drum machine, you pretty much have to stick with the programmed arrangement. Now, some professional recording bands have used drum machines to great effect in some cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lammas Day Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 Like all things, it depends who's programming it and who's using it. NIN and The Jesus Lizard are two of my favorite bands and they kick a$$. Although the Jesus Lizard are pretty much better known for the stuff with live drums this is still good music, there's no denying that drum machines add an element that in the right hands adds a harder, aggressive, merciless, DRIVING sound to the music. It's this element that can give rock/metal an edge a conventional drum rig can lack. I love Big Black for this very reason, a regular set of drums would just turn this band into a forgettable dirge. I can't walk around town listening to this music without feeling a little bit threatened and keep looking over my shoulder. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbTJ_pHbjHc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lammas Day Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 Oh, and just because I like linking bands I love, Amplifier (FanTASTIC Manchester band who I think a lot of people on this site would enjoy, PROPA guitar music) re-sampled the actual live drums and spaced them perfectly to create a more futuristic/synthetic sound. So how about that for your live vs sampled debate, live drums by the band re-sampled and played back on a drum machine. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDf3k_bm4Kw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstMeasure Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 Drum machine? Fun and useful tool, hard to interact with. Even harder to Improv with and their collaborative input is nil. Getting a drum machine to do a little PR before and after the show is next to impossible. Then having a couple Beers with your drum machine and talking about new material or places you'd like to play can be a pretty one sided conversation. Drum Machines aren't very good at carrying Speakers or helping to set up the PA either, and I have yet to play with a Drum Machine that can sing any sort of Back Up Vocals. IMO, music needs spontaneity, and that ain't happening with a drum machine. Besides a drum machine is the same as a prerecorded Bass Line, or how about some Prerecorded Guitar Parts. Then one could sing over a prerecorded backing track and read the lyrics on some sort of teleprompter. Or better yet, one can record all the music and vocals, save it to an digital player of some sort and just entertain with a PA and an MP3 player.....oh wait a minute, this avenue may have been explored already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fl00dsm0k3 Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 drum machines arnt as good as phil taylor or dave lombardo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimbabig Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 When do we launch into the tirade of drummer jokes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoFrills Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 This guy would upset most drummers lol Makes me laugh seeing the way he's looking around and effortlessly busting out beats which drummers need their arms and legs to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damian Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 When do we launch into the tirade of drummer jokes? What did the drummer get on his IQ test ???? Drool................. I own Superior Drummer 2.0, and other drum software, and I have built in drums in my stand alone DAWs...and drum machines..... I also hang out with music engineers and producers.....Some of them are drummers......They use BFD and S.D. 2.0.......................... When done right, you'll never know..............I mean, you will not know................And, may I point out, if a DRUMMER uses S.D.2.0, will you call that NOT drumming ????? No, you would not......ALL music engineers COMBINE real drum tracks with software drums....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lammas Day Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 i think anyone complaining that drum machines aren't real or lack something because there's some synthetic link in-between player and audience can ONLY not be hypocritical if they're some acoustic playing puritan. If you've EVER used any form of effect on your guitar, from Chorus, or Delay, or Distortion or even Reverb, than I'm afraid in my book that strays dangerously close to double standards. Isn't it the same argument that if you're using Delay, then you can only take credit for the first noise produced, after that it's not yours, computer generated rubbish? If you're using a drum machine, YOU'VE got to program it, YOU'VE got to decide the samples, YOU'VE got to (in most cases) physically beat out the rhythm. Maybe if you've never used drum samples to produce music, giving it ago to see first hand how much involvement the musician has in its production might change your mind. Lets not mix up a drum machine with a CD drum backing track - they're not the same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrosurfer1959 Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 There getting better all the time. I prefer looping and digital drums over a drum machine but hell either one is better than living with a drummer if you have a home studio. I use a Zen drum desktop model running through a yamaha motif rack for the midi with when I need to lay down typical drum stuff. Much esier than recording drums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silenced Fred Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 I have to agree with Dub on this. For weird synthy drum parts, they're cool. For real drums? Meh. Drum loops are ok, but I hate em. I would much rather play with a drummer. They are getting better, and for recordings, I guess I don't always know the difference, but whoever is programming and mixing them better be amazing or else it sounds bad. Worse than a drummer with sub par timing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShredAstaire Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 People still use drum machines? Not computer loops and sequencers? I use Digidesign Strike for the drums in all of my music....since its all me at home and i don't play drums... If I work on it, it can sound very natural and not perfect (like a real drummer)...its a great app. Here's a taste: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6g4S71XT04 I likes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shnate McDuanus Posted August 29, 2011 Author Share Posted August 29, 2011 People still use drum machines? Not computer loops and sequencers? I use Digidesign Strike for the drums in all of my music....since its all me at home and i don't play drums... If I work on it, it can sound very natural and not perfect (like a real drummer)...its a great app. Here's a taste: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6g4S71XT04 I likes. Well, I guess when I said "drum machines," my intention was to include software drums (loops, sequencers etc.) in the classification, just because they fulfill the same purpose. Digidesign Strike seems good--I'll have to look into it. Right now I'm considering either Sonar (since I could use a better DAW than Audacity) or Renoise (because there's literally nothing you can't do with it--see: Venetian Snares--and again, I could use a good DAW.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinh Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 What do you call a drummer without a girfriend? - homeless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FirstMeasure Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 i think anyone complaining that drum machines aren't real or lack something because there's some synthetic link in-between player and audience can ONLY not be hypocritical if they're some acoustic playing puritan. If you've EVER used any form of effect on your guitar, from Chorus, or Delay, or Distortion or even Reverb, than I'm afraid in my book that strays dangerously close to double standards. Isn't it the same argument that if you're using Delay, then you can only take credit for the first noise produced, after that it's not yours, computer generated rubbish? If you're using a drum machine, YOU'VE got to program it, YOU'VE got to decide the samples, YOU'VE got to (in most cases) physically beat out the rhythm. Maybe if you've never used drum samples to produce music, giving it ago to see first hand how much involvement the musician has in its production might change your mind. Lets not mix up a drum machine with a CD drum backing track - they're not the same It's the lack of Human Interaction, not the Inorganic Sounds that kills it for me. I love an Electronic Drum Set with a Real Drummer on it. Music is a conversation between the players, you can't have a conversation with a drum machine. You have to be able to listen to each other and be ready and willing to follow each others lead. With a prerecorded track of any kind you're now a slave to that prerecorded track. "The Human Equation" has been replaced by "The Human Led By Machine Equation". I, for one, am not interested in listening to a Mechanical Band Leader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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