Lars68 Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 I came to the guitar hobby as an adult with no background in music whatsoever. It has now taken me the best part of the past fifteen years to learn to play basic stuff on the guitar to my satisfaction. I have had to work incredibly hard to do what I see teenagers do within a couple of months, but I have had lots of fun along the way. During the last two years or so, I have turned my attention to trying to learn how to sing, and to my great disappointment, I see very little progress. I'm ok with rythm and frasing but simply cannot consistently be in tune. This has made me stay away from playing for a while. I have realized that my rudimentary playing needs a voice in order to make a whole, and I can't find it within me. Please give this music and guitar nut, without a musical ear, advice on how I can reach my goal of being able to perform my favorite songs in an enjoyable fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorrisrownSal Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Lars - I have pitch issues. I get about 90% there and drift - kind of like a Subaru on a dirt race track corner. I work very hard to try to control my skid...errrr pitch. I will never have a natural singing voice that is A-rated, but frankly I just get too much enjoyment from playing and singing that I get past it. Get past it yourself. Some of us are naturals and regular Chris Isaaks and Sinatras. Some of us not so much. In a thread from July of this year Buc McMaster gave some great advice in a thread - check it out and stick with it brother: http://forum.gibson...._1#entry1543196 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorrisrownSal Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Lars - I have pitch issues. I get about 90% there and drift - kind of like a Subaru on a dirt race track corner. I work very hard to try to control my skid...errrr pitch. I will never have a natural singing voice that is A-rated, but frankly I just get too much enjoyment from playing and singing that I get past it. Get past it yourself. Some of us are naturals and regular Chris Isaaks and Sinatras. Some of us not so much. In a thread from July of this year Buc McMaster gave some great advice in a thread: http://forum.gibson...._1#entry1543196 Two things strike me: enunciation and pitch. I hear yousinging single syllable words as two.......dawn and gone inthe first verse as examples. Fine to stretch single syllables vocally, butturning them into two is a tricky business. It is doable and can be effectivein the right spot with the right song but in this case, Dylan melodies arequite simple and lend themselves best to simple enunciations. I also hear twoor three instances where you cut the last word of a line short, leaving theword pretty much unspoken. When singing, exaggerated enunciation produces muchclearer vocals. Pitch is a tough one. Some folks are born with it, others (like myself) have towork to get it. More than anything else, being on pitch when singing is muchoimportanto. And, being honest, you're all over the place in this one. Standfacing a wall, strum the single chord of your choice and sing an"ahhhhhhhh" on pitch with the chord.......do it a thousand times.Change the chord and do it another thousand. Focus on hitting the correct pitchfirst, then work to hold that tone as smoothly as possible. Tighten yourabdominals and push the tone from your diaphragm, not from your throat. Youneed not sing a song or even a particular word for this exercise........sing"ahhhhhhh" and "ohhhhhhh" will train the muscles that workthe vocal cords just fine. You'll definitely hear your pitch improve if youfocus on this aspect of singing as opposed to trying to learn a melody, a pageof lyrics and guitar part all at once. Just like you have focused on teachingyourself to fingerpick (quite well, I may add), turn that same focus on gettinga handle on your vocal pitch. Some folks are born to sing. I honestly believethe rest of us can learn if we're willing to put in the time and effort. No, wewon't all be Sinatras, Martins or Presleys, but with effort we can learn tosing! I sincerely hope you take this in the spirit it is intended,Mark........an honest evaluation of the performance from my perspective. Singthose "ahhhs" and "ohhhs" with focus, really listening toyourself............it can be done. EDIT: As an example of exaggerated enunciation, listen to how many of the wordsin this vocal are "followed thru on". Making sure to hit consonantsat the end of words makes them distinct when singing. Really rounding outvowels really helps clarify a vocal...... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4wLvZ37pTg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidblast Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Singing looks real easy doesn't it, person opens up the mouth, words, meldoy, nice stuff comes out! for some people, like Sal says, it just comes natural, for others.. It's one of the hardest things to master. Breathing is huge, make sure you have control over it. Record your self as much as possible, yes, you will probably hate what your hearing, but it's the only way to really identify your weak areas. If you have a small mixer, get some head phones, set up a mic, plug in and practice with this setup daily. Stick with it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 It is impossible to diagnose a problem without seeing/hearing....... (Gulp) the patient. Buc's diagnosis above was from hearing a track, in that case EA. So hit record on your iPhone or iPad or pc or tape deck and get it up here. Without that reference, you could be a finicky and prissy vocal genius for all we know! Perhaps your voice is fine, but you might need to capo up to the 4th, 5th, 7th fret to sing in tune with a guitar with C and other cowboy chords, say..... BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanCarlosVejar Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 I would say experiment with your voice try singing the same song different ways. Don't try to reach the high notes to start with ... just sing those parts your own way Another thing is to get a capo and try singing the song in different keys. JC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Some songs are easier than others. Ballads, for example. Look at the songs we learned when we were kids. Don't try songs that are just too difficult and get frustrated. Crawl, walk, run, skip, dance. People like me who can't carry a tune in a bucket cannot go to songs in strange keys with lots of sharps and flats thrown in and other fancy stuff - and get it right. It may not be fun singing "My Darling Clementine" - but you'll learn to hear and control your pitch. As Buc suggested - sing facing a wall, a foot away - and listen. I have a couple of 'pro bono" "students" whom I am teaching guitar. Like you have found - without singing, you miss a big part of the experience. I had them start with songs they liked - which predictably were difficult (Life Is A Highway by Rascal Flats) and they bombed and knew it. So, to start - I gave them the "Star Spangled Banner". Expert feel this is a very difficult song. I feel it is straightforward and well known and easy to learn. A big part of the process was finding which key felt right for them. It took a couple of months - but it was a great confidence booster. Then, "Somewhere Over the Rainbow". Then "Mercedes Benz". Soon we'll be doing "Blowin' In The Wind" Each one builds on the other. One student does play and sing songs she finds more 'relevant' on her own, of course. To keep herself motivated in spite of my Machiavellian approach. But - I'm no expert, and as far removed from a 'singing coach' as a person could be so you have to find what works best for you. Just don't get depressed watching the super singers on "The Voice". They are naturals! G'Luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duluthdan Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Lars - I do not recall hearing you sing. I do not have great voice - its rather vanilla because I have never worked on it. I recall trying out for a concert choir in college. I walked in to the room, thhe conductor played 2 notes on the piano for me to just sing "Ah" to, then looked at me and said "I don't need you". 2 notes ! I think Buc's advice in the thread Sal referred to is great. I sing softly - and crank up the microphone to the point of feedback - that gives me my best shot at a decent performance. The louder I sing, the sharper I get, so I just take care to stay within my comfort zone - and I take care to listen. Sing in the shower, sing in the shed, sing in the yard, sing in the car - practice practice - try it super softly if that helps - it does me. I play regularly with a guy who used to e an electric guitar lead studio musician - he cannot sing, harmonize, nadda nothing zip - so he doesn't - but he does listen to me, and gives me very useful observations. Its tough to look for and get constructive critical critique. When I sit to play, my wife (who WAS in that concert choir) leaves the room. Her frame of reference is way different than mine. But when I perform at Woody Creek, and amplified venues, I often get nice feedback from folks in the audience. - I "eat" the microphone, and my soft voice, in the right key, must sound pretty good- often times I am conscious of the audience being in the same trance as I am - but I play almost all original stuff - no one has a reference on how the song "should sound" because for the most part they've never heard it. I was astounded one night when a lady requested one of my songs that she heard me play years ago in Wisconsin - I could barely remember the words. Practice practice practice everywhere you find yourself alone - try soft, loud, different keys. You will find your zone one day. Edit: The day after Christmas I am having major surgery on my sinuses, which are chronically infected - apparently did not fully form at birth, and I've broken my nose a few times (played hockey in Canada back when no one had even thought about face-masks) and my surgeon tells me that my voice may change - I'm kind of looking forward to hearing what its like when I wake up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars68 Posted December 23, 2014 Author Share Posted December 23, 2014 Thanks everyone for the inspiration and encouraging words! Here is a link to a song I recorded about a year ago. I believe I might have improved some since, but not so much https://soundcloud.com/lars1968/all-i-ever-wanted I posted this song here on the forum at the time, because I wanted to get input on the songwriting. This is the first and only song I have ever written myself. So please feel free to comment on the song also. Try to look past the singing. My goal is to be able to perform simple songs of others and my own. I haven't attempted writing another song since this one, because a song really does not exist until I can play it in front of others. I feel that I better spend my time trying to get my voice right before writing more songs. It would only be like they existed in a vacuum, if you know what I mean... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DenverSteve Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Find yourself a vocal coach and work with him/her as long as you need. Really the same as with anything. If you want to expedite learning (guitar, golf, tennis, skiing...) get a teacher to teach you at the pace that works best for you. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 One of the convenient things about singing is that you can rehearse everywhere as long as you are alone - while you clean up, wait for a bus, of course in the bath and so on. . So don't miss any opportunity to mini-practice. Hum your way forward and start this acapella-program with tunes you know very well. Never be afraid of children-songs - stuff you have in your blood. Take the 10 best singers in the world and add blessed Joe Cocker ~ they would all sing children-songs with ear to ear smiles on their faces. The important thing is that you get tone-control. Listen carefully and be highly aware as you go, record, listen again, re-record till the cows come home. Your range might increase with time, but that wouldn't matter if you're still not in pitch. Beware of that and in case it's difficult get a close friend to hear your tapes and point out the weak spots. Needless to say that all the Christmas-carols are a must the next 5 days, , , Jingle bells jangle bells jingle all the way. . Enjoy and feel free Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR GIBS Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Truth is simple: you do it for pleasure. If you want to get better - work. Play&sing ; sing&play. And love what you do (I do the same). And have FUN! (Just like me) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fumblefingers Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 I came to the guitar hobby as an adult with no background in music whatsoever. It has now taken me the best part of the past fifteen years to learn to play basic stuff on the guitar to my satisfaction. I have had to work incredibly hard to do what I see teenagers do within a couple of months, but I have had lots of fun along the way. During the last two years or so, I have turned my attention to trying to learn how to sing, and to my great disappointment, I see very little progress. I'm ok with rythm and frasing but simply cannot consistently be in tune. This has made me stay away from playing for a while. I have realized that my rudimentary playing needs a voice in order to make a whole, and I can't find it within me. Please give this music and guitar nut, without a musical ear, advice on how I can reach my goal of being able to perform my favorite songs in an enjoyable fashion. Welcome to fumblefingers' world. To be fair, my pace of learning is a bit more accelerated than yours (though I suspect you're being facetious), but I've found that learning as an adult is much harder than as a child. There's a reason I chose my member name. My problem seems to be physical- my fingers just will not do the things I want them to. I lack dexterity, strength, and speed. I know what I want to do and how something is supposed to sound, but oftentimes lack the ability to pull it off without extreme patience and practice. I sometimes think I am not practicing in the correct manner. I mean, I can play chords for days and weeks on end, and it seems like I never get better, still making the same mistakes over and over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phelonious Ponk Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 All those people you guys think are "natural" singers? They've been singing, a lot, since they were kids. It never felt like work. It never looked like work. But there was a ton of practice and development time that went into it. Work at it as hard as you work on guitar playing. You'll get better. Start with songs with limited range and transpose them to where they work best for you. Sing them over and over again, at full volume (nothing else counts) until you can get through them without losing pitch. Now, vocally, you can play a C chord without buzzing or muting. You've got to very actively listen to great singers and analyze what they're doing with every syllable, with every note. You've got to learn breath control, phrasing, power, dynamics, tone and texture. It's all in your chest, head and throat. You can't go to the store and buy any of it. You want to be a competent singer? It's going to take the kind of work it took to become a competent guitar player, and you can do it. But the first step is to stop thinking it's something that either does or does not come "naturally." The only thing that comes easily is pitch control, and that's not because those people have it naturally, it's because they're listening. Rant complete. P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars68 Posted December 23, 2014 Author Share Posted December 23, 2014 Welcome to fumblefingers' world. To be fair, my pace of learning is a bit more accelerated than yours (though I suspect you're being facetious), but I've found that learning as an adult is much harder than as a child. There's a reason I chose my member name. My problem seems to be physical- my fingers just will not do the things I want them to. I lack dexterity, strength, and speed. I know what I want to do and how something is supposed to sound, but oftentimes lack the ability to pull it off without extreme patience and practice. I sometimes think I am not practicing in the correct manner. I mean, I can play chords for days and weeks on end, and it seems like I never get better, still making the same mistakes over and over. For me figuring out the actual guitar playing is easier. There are tons of videos out there telling me what strings to hit and were to fret. It takes time and patience, of course, but it does not necessitate a musical ear (it sure helps, though). With singing, I know something is off, but I don't know how to correct it. Thanks everyone for all the tips and pointers. I am really paying attention to what has been posted so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfbird Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 I've actually become a much worse singer over time. It's because my hearing has deteriorated sharply. I suggest recording yourself singing and playing with headphones and then without and see if you notice a difference. I discovered a massive difference when singing with headphones. Because I can better hear my vocal, I naturally sing closer to pitch and sometimes even nail it. But I know your frustration. My problems are so dire that it isn't a matter of hitting notes poorly, which I do from time to time, but I also have shaky pitch when going for the note. My travel there is often flat and sharp, creating an unlistenable vocal track. I'm thinking of taking the Lou Reed approach of writing songs with no more than four notes and then talking it out anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorrisrownSal Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Lars I'll try to listen later at home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted December 23, 2014 Share Posted December 23, 2014 Thanks everyone for the inspiration and encouraging words! Here is a link to a song I recorded about a year ago. I believe I might have improved some since, but not so much https://soundcloud.com/lars1968/all-i-ever-wanted I posted this song here on the forum at the time, because I wanted to get input on the songwriting. This is the first and only song I have ever written myself. So please feel free to comment on the song also. Try to look past the singing. My goal is to be able to perform simple songs of others and my own. I haven't attempted writing another song since this one, because a song really does not exist until I can play it in front of others. I feel that I better spend my time trying to get my voice right before writing more songs. It would only be like they existed in a vacuum, if you know what I mean... I had a few listens and there is hope - I thought vocal was ok and the guitar very nice. You just need to follow all the directions everyone has given you! So it wasn't as bad as you make out. Once you have done all the other lessons mentioned above, a thing you can try to 'align' guitar and voice is to get a nice little book of TABs with simple melodies, perhaps a bit late for Xmas tunes unless you run to a music shop today, but simple like mentioned. Learn the singing lines on guitar and once you have it, sing with it and then sing it alone....then try the chords with the singing.....then record it all.... BluesKing777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jedzep Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 There's plenty of complex advice for you here, but if you don't have a natural singing capability, the advice to use your capo to get all the songs you'd like to sing in the most comfortable and powerful key you can operate in is the best and easiest first step. You're never going to develop a falsetto if you can't stretch high and you'll never be able to go low bass if you can't use your breathing and diaphragm to create that frequency. In between the two extremes are the keys you can produce your best vocal tones, and unless you find it easy to play songs in different keys I think the easiest shortcut is to take BK's capo suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 I listened to your song/tune and it's good. The playing is fine too and the guitar sounds splendid. All in all it's so promising that it's understandable you wanna get further. Your car simply needs to get the 4th wheel up and goin'. Can I suggest a more square method of approaching the wanted tone/note-control - Find to 2 outer points/notes that defines your vox-range as it is. An example could be between the high F (first string, first fret) and the D (loose 4th sting). Then play each note one at the time and emulate this note with your singing voice. Take all the steps up'n'down and pay attention to every rhyme. Listen like when you tuned a guitar before tuners were invented. Go by ear, slow and consistent - use an aaaaarrr-sound, then an eeeeeeeh-sound, an oooooooh-sound and so forth. But be sure you hit the right frequency right on - perhaps even use the electro tuner or some other special device when checking this. . Thing is that you sing your way though your song double-sided. Some of the time you're spot on, some of it you tilt. And it's quite a prob you can't hear when your there and when you aren't. That is the bad weed on which you have focus. I can imagine it's hard. Like a comedian being hilarious half of the time and embarrassing the other half - without having a single clue himself. Stay bold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onewilyfool Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 Sing with others…sing with what gives you joy,,,what "feels" good…it's pretty simple Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars68 Posted December 24, 2014 Author Share Posted December 24, 2014 Thing is that you sing your way though your song double-sided. Some of the time you're spot on, some of it you tilt. And it's quite a prob you can't hear when your there and when you aren't. That is the bad weed on which you have focus. I can imagine it's hard. Like a comedian being hilarious half of the time and embarrassing the other half - without having a single clue himself. The analogy with a comedian is spot on. That is exactly how I feel. As my singing is right now, it does not matter how much thought I put into doing a good melody or writing lyrics that mean something to me. I will never be able to get it across. Writig that song really did not take much effort, and I want to challenge myself and see what other songs I can write. So I will start practing my singing today. I will use the ideas posted here. I also found a songbook for Springsteen's Nebraska, which I find easier to sing from than most other material. The songs are easy to play and the vocal range needed is quite limited. I will use these songs to mix up my practice. I got myself a plan!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroAussie Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 I totally understand where youre coming from Lars. However stick at it, focus on simple songs with easy melodies. I have a big problem with pitch control but Im progressing slowly through practice and song selection. Finding your key is actually, key. Ive had some really good support, and feedback from the forum which encouraged my development but also provided honest, supportive feedback. I also suggest strongly Brett Mannings course, its brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 Sing with others…sing with what gives you joy,,,what "feels" good…it's pretty simple Cha Ching. Bingo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vacamartin Posted December 24, 2014 Share Posted December 24, 2014 Lars....my 2 cents> No matter what your vocal talent is...or is not, doesn't really matter. Sing with what you have and who you are. There's plenty of "pretty" voices out there, and a few that are not... but are real> Dylan is a great example! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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