J45 Modification / sloted, ramped, solid pins

[philfish]

I've had this done on two other guitars,  string changing is much easier at the bridge. Had the luthier I have been going to for years now, perp my 45 for solid pins and ramp the bridge.

My 45 has the pin holes close to the back edge of the bridge, the ramping  increased string break angle from the saddle, which was always shallow because of the pin hole placement

Edited May 1, 2022 by philfish

[jchabalk]

(just getting the images to display)

 

 

[jchabalk]

I like it - i was thinking of having this done to mine a couple of years ago but the luthier talked me out of it - to be honest my break angle is pretty good.

Did you notice a change in the sound of the guitar? I raised the action on mine after having it pretty low for a number of years and with the increased saddle height i found a rather immediate change in sound and responsiveness, especially when strumming with a heavy hand like i do 😉

[ALD323]

1 hour ago, philfish said:

I've had this done on two other guitars,  string changing is much easier at the bridge. Had the luthier I have been going to for years now, perp my 45 for solid pins and ramp the bridge.

My 45 has the pin holes close to the back edge of the bridge, the ramping  increased string break angle from the saddle, which was always shallow because of the pin hole placement

I see you have ivoroid pins on there. How do  you like them tone wise?

[zombywoof]

Common enough modification.  In the 1990s Martin began ramping bridges on the 17 and lower series guitars at the factory until they changed the bridge design.  While you can slot bridges without ramping, for me the way to go for decades now has been solid bridge pins.  

Edited May 1, 2022 by zombywoof

[philfish]

1 hour ago, jchabalk said:

Did you notice a change in the sound of the guitar?

Not that I noticed, it has always been a great sounding guitar to me. But I my be still drunk on the tone of these sunbeam strings, on my second set.

 

1 hour ago, ALD323 said:

I see you have ivoroid pins on there. How do  you like them tone wise?

I like the look of them and the weight. Guitar sounds great

 

1 hour ago, zombywoof said:

While you can slot bridges without ramping

Yes, this is the only bridge I have had ramped ( pin hole placement ) the other 2 were sloted  

[Lars68]

I do this too, slottted and ramped bridges with solid pins. Makes changing strings easier while also protecting the bridge plate.

Lars

[Murph]

2 hours ago, Lars68 said:

I do this too,   Makes changing strings easier while also protecting the bridge plate.

Lars

 

How's this ?

[Lars68]

31 minutes ago, Murph said:

 

How's this ?

With slotted pins the ball end of the string rests sort of halfway on the bridge plate and halfway inside the slot in the pin. Hence, it tends to push the pin up. Also, it tends to chew away at the wood on the edge of the pin hole, making the hole larger as time goes by, making the string creep yet further up, and so on…

With solid pins and slots (cut only as wide as the string, no more), the ball end rest more firmly on the bridge plate. It will not push the pin up. The pin is only there to keep the string from sideways moving out of it’s slot. The upward force is much less.

Lars

[ratherbwalkn]

 

"""I do this too,   Makes changing strings easier while also protecting the bridge plate.

How's this """""

 

Im not a luthier but the ball ends of the string rest against the bottom of the pin and not against the bridge plate which can cause wear. 

Not to hard to do oneself.  I did a couple of mine many years ago with no issues, I cant say the sound was different in anyway, 

Are they A.A. pins?    It looks like your luthier did a very clean job,  IMO

 

Sorry,  looks like someone answered the question while I was typing!

Edited May 2, 2022 by ratherbwalkn

[Murph]

So, solid pins are better for the longevity of the guitar/bridge plate?

Couldn't you just turn your pins so as the slots aren't being used?

[Lars68]

By the way, here is a video that does a good job of explaining why slotting can be a good idea.

Lars

 

[ratherbwalkn]

Couldn't you just turn your pins so as the slots aren't being used?

 

Yes! But you would still need to address the bridge itself the string would need a place to rest.

If memory serves me,  someone once said they lost a pin ( un-slotted )while changing the strings and while ordering a new set 

of new un-slotted pins they used their old slotted pin by just turning it until the correct pins arrived. Another plus

to this issue is Ive had slotted pins curl up on my guitars over the years ( not often but with cheap Martin pins ), that won't happen with un-slotted pins

[JWG4927]

On 5/1/2022 at 3:32 PM, philfish said:

Had the luthier perp my 45

Don't you mean Pimp my J45?

Either way, looks good. The trick is to not cut into the bridgeplate when cutting the slot.

[Dave F]

34 minutes ago, JWG4927 said:

Don't you mean Pimp my J45?

Either way, looks good. The trick is to not cut into the bridgeplate when cutting the slot.

I personally would not cut the slots anywhere down near the top. If cut too deep, I would imagine that the string tension would wind up cutting into the top and bridge plate eventually since the bridge isn't taking the blunt of the wear.

 

[fortyearspickn]

Great picture -   I guess I'm in the minority, I'd never cut slots into my bridge to change the break angle.   I just obsess over making sure the ball end is snug against the bridge plate.  Rather have a slot in the pin than cut one in the bridge, and I suppose the face and the bridge plate.  Since I'm not good at fixing things - my motto has always been -  "If it's not broken ...."

[Twang Gang]

I get the unslotted pin vs. slotted and the increased break angle giving the strings more contact with the saddle if you lengthen the slot on the bridge.  I am not clear on what part of this modification is the "ramping"?

Edited May 3, 2022 by Twang Gang

[Hall]

Nice looking guitar, philfish.   I spend more time than most getting my strings seated right and I suppose that is enough for me.   But, I sure like your guitar and it looks as though the work has been well done which enhances all the way around the story.  Well done.

[j45nick]

6 hours ago, fortyearspickn said:

Great picture -   I guess I'm in the minority, I'd never cut slots into my bridge to change the break angle.   I just obsess over making sure the ball end is snug against the bridge plate.  Rather have a slot in the pin than cut one in the bridge, and I suppose the face and the bridge plate.  Since I'm not good at fixing things - my motto has always been -  "If it's not broken ...."

There is no ramping in the  Dave F's drawing. The ramping on the OP's bridge modification is the long, angled string slot in the bridge between the pins and the saddle that allows the string a steeper angle to the saddle, compared to the un-ramped arrangement shown in Dave F's drawing.

Both of my Bozeman Gibsons have very slight ramps cut in the bridge, which were done at the factory to the best of my knowledge. On older Gibsons, you often see "natural" ramps worn into the bridge by decades of string changes, tuning, and playing.

The problem with older guitars with slotted pins is that there is inevitable wear and tear in the pinholes from the ball end of the string pulling into the bridgeplate, no matter how careful you are.

When Ross Teigen did bridgeplate pinhole repairs on what is now my primary (and virtually completely original) 1950 J-45 a few years ago, he suggested it was a good time to slot and slightly ramp the bridge, and make the move to unslotted pins, to minimize bridgeplate damage in the future.

That is a really good thing to consider on Gibsons from the late 1940s and early 50s that have softer spruce bridgeplates, which can get badly worn over time.

I bought the files and saws from Stewmac to do this to my other  1950 J-45, which has a pretty lousy break angle and a new maple bridgeplate and new Brazilian bridge. Since that guitar has a number of unoriginal features, I don't have any real concerns about another small modification which may actually improve tone.

Your experience may vary.

[Twang Gang]

OK, I get it now.  Cutting the slots is creating the ramp for a steeper break angle over the saddle.  So, I had to check my guitars closely.  My J29 has some ramp mostly on the 3 treble strings (I'm guessing because it is the oldest and the ramps are from wear).  My Humingbirds have no ramps.  My Collings have no ramps either, but the pins are located much closer to the saddle than on the Gibson guitars so the break angle is steeper, and the Collings came from the factory with unslotted pins.  Before I take a saw to my Hummingbirds I think I will just turn the pins around so the strings don't go into the slots and see if seating them firmer to the bridge plate makes any discernable tone enhancement.  And hopefully doing that will prevent bridge plate wear as well. 

[Lars68]

Fitting a string in an unslotted bridge and then putting a slotted pin in the same hole with the slot facing away from the string should be impossible . The only way the hole would be able to hold both the string and the backward pin at the same time would be if the hole was severely oversized. This would be a bad thing.

Also, ramping refers to changing the angle of ONLY the very last bit of the slot closest to the bridge, in order to have about a 45 degree break angle over the saddle. It can be done on BOTH slotted and unslotted bridges, because it only determines how the string travels from the saddle to the hole, not how it continues through the hole to the other side. Hence, a bridge can be slotted but not ramped, or ramped but not slotted. However, if you go through the trouble of slotting a bridge, you might as well improve the break angle by adding a little bit of a ramp. It is very easy to do. Another very easy thing to do is to get a reamer for the holes, which has the same angle/slope as the pins, and ream the holes. Usually the holes are straight and the pins are sloped. A cone shaped pin in a straight hole will wobble when pushed, leaving a gap at the bottom. So reaming the holes to get the same degree of slope as the pin will make the pin sit tight in the hole, and it will also make sure the pins are deeper so they don't stick up too much above the bridge.

I like to tinker, so I ream, slot, and ramp all my guitars and put in solid pins. It just feels good 😊 

Lars

 

[livemusic]

What great info in here! I note this about the two guitars I have out right now... my J45 Standard (I think it might be 2010 model?) has little break angle. My Collings OM2 has significant angle. And the Collings is a loud guitar. For other reasons other than this, but it is def loud.

Also, the J45 has holes like the J45 in this thread, toward the very back of the bridge. The Collings has them more off the bridge edge.

I would like to do this on my this J45. Or, actually, have it done. I don't have tools and I sure wouldn't want to screw it up.

[J185cat]

I keep wondering if doing this could affect the warranty on an original owner guitar? Especially if any issues occurred around the bridge. Thoughts?

[philfish]

2 hours ago, Lars68 said:

I like to tinker, so I ream, slot, and ramp all my guitars and put in solid pins. It just feels good 😊

I didn't mention in my post that the pin holes were reamed for a slightly over sized pin for perfect fit.  

Good point Lars

Edited May 3, 2022 by philfish

[j45nick]

1 hour ago, livemusic said:

What great info in here! I note this about the two guitars I have out right now... my J45 Standard (I think it might be 2010 model?) has little break angle. My Collings OM2 has significant angle. And the Collings is a loud guitar. For other reasons other than this, but it is def loud.

Also, the J45 has holes like the J45 in this thread, toward the very back of the bridge. The Collings has them more off the bridge edge.

I would like to do this on my this J45. Or, actually, have it done. I don't have tools and I sure wouldn't want to screw it up.

Stewmac sell saws and files specifically for this purpose. I have a set of five different sized of saws, and five different sizes of files for this. You match the  slots and ramps to your string gauge.

Bob Colosi made me a set of un-slotted very dark dyed bone pins, and Ross Teigen drilled and reamed new pin holes to match these pins after plugging the damaged pin holes.

It was a lot cheaper than a bridgeplate replacement, and it kept the original bridgeplate, which was important to me on an all-original 1950 J-45.

Note: "all original" except for new tuner buttons, saddle, bridgepins, and endpin. Kept the original nut, which I think is some kind of nylon or similar hard plastic.