Help me think this through, friends…J45 dilemma

[rbpicker]

The new 50s Original J45 is a beautiful, already great sounding guitar.  I love how it looks, it’s become a great addition to the herd, and it’s getting along with its brother- from -a -different -mother, my J45 Standard..  All kidding aside, it’s a wonderful guitar.

Now the dilemma…although the neck girth is a bit smaller than the J50 that I returned (because of the too-large neck), I am finding that with extended play, I’m getting some pain in my arthritic left hand, at the thumb knuckle joint.  I played for a couple hours yesterday and this morning, my hand is hurting significantly.  BTW, my 45 Standard has never once caused any pain.

Here is where I’d appreciate some input.  I’m seriously thinking about having the neck reshaped to a mild V, leaving the full depth at the center while reducing the shoulders or “cheeks” of the neck, in essence reducing the total girth.  I’ve had v-shaped necks in the past and have found them to be very comfortable.  I know that the resale value will plummet if I do that, but I’ll be able to play it without pain….I think.  

What would you do in this case?  I’ve never had a guitar that I liked well enough to do something like this.  Typically, I’d take my lumps and trade it for something more comfortable.  But with this one (I named it Little Elvis, and I don’t name guitars) I’m really attached to it already.

Thanks friends,  for your thoughts on this.  
Roger

[jedzep]

No one can calculate the value of that move in your world but you Roger.  Don't overthink it, if you can easily afford the de-valuation.

For me, I don't understand the logic of having two nearly identically toned guitars in any collection, so I'm not a good choice for opinion.

[fortyearspickn]

If you can't play it without significant pain - the answer is obvious. 

[kidblast]

First question: Has it been setup?  Is the action comparable to the j45 that causes you no discomfort?

[dhanners623]

I prefer the V-shaped necks, too. They just feel more comfortable.

In the ‘70s, I had a shop in Fort Worth reshape the neck of a plywood-topped lawsuit Takamine (technically, a Cease & Desist Takamine…) into a V shape. It turned out ok, but one has to keep in mind how much wood they have to work with. It’s not going to be like the hefty V necks of old because it starts out thinner.

That said, when I had Kevin Schwab of Minneapolis build me a dreadnaught a decade or so ago, he started with a pre-carved StewMac neck and he gave it a soft V shape. It isn’t like a hefty vintage V neck, but it is VERY comfortable to play.

If you’re not worried about resale value and you have a builder/repair person you trust, I say do it. Having a guitar shaped to your preferences is pretty nice.

[BluesKing777]

 

Some tough advice - if it hurts, don’t do it.

Little Elvis is leaving the building.

You could get the neck reshaped and still have problems, then more reshaping? You will just have to find another model with the slim taper neck of your J45. My Blues King L-00  has it, plenty of Gibsons since around 2007/8.

Hummingbird or Dove with slim taper would go nicely with your J45.......probably better in the long run that two J45s.

 

BluesKing777.

 

Edited July 18, 2022 by BluesKing777

[zombywoof]

My biggest issue with Gibsons and feel tends to be more about the skimpy string spacing at the bridge.   If anything I find the 50s Original neck at the skinnier end of what I am most comfortable with so kind of a while playable not my "ideal."   If I went by neck alone the first Bozeman-made guitar I would be looking at would be a '34 OJ.  Now if only they would go with the original un-tapered Jumbo body that would truly be something.   Basically a 14 fret Smeck.  The mind wobbles.

But if it were me, I would not hesitate to go with a re-carved neck.  Something which works for you is more important than any consideration of value down the road,  Your only other option would appear to be to return the 50s Original and take the time to seek out something which feels more like home.

[zombywoof]

20 minutes ago, BluesKing777 said:

 

 

You could get the neck reshaped and still have problems, then more reshaping? You will just have to find another model with the slim taper neck of your J45. My Blues King L-00  has it, plenty of Gibsons since around 2007/8.

 

 

No argument that you pays your money you takes your chances. Probably the main reason I have never been able to screw up the courage to go with a Made to Order guitar,  

What about a model with the Advance Response neck?  I gather these have a 16" radius compared to the 12" on other carves.   They also have a thickness generally in the .87" to .88" range (compared to ,80" to .84" on the Slim Taper) with a subtle V feel.  But again, especially given the lack of consistency when it comes to necks, this is where the failure to provide these kinds of specs makes buying something you have not held in your sweaty little hands first a crap shoot.  I can say for a fact that one of the things which pushed me to buy that used Fairbanks years ago was the seller provided me with every spec you could think of.  

Edited July 18, 2022 by zombywoof

[rbpicker]

Lots of great thinking from you all.  Thank you.  Looks like a mix of do it and don’t do it.  

The suggestion of returning the guitar makes sense, except I traded in one and it has sold already, so I can’t unwind the deal.  

As pointed out, what if the reshaped neck still doesn’t work?  Then I’m in the situation of selling/trading something of diminished value.  Regarding having two J45s, I’m ok with that as they each have their own distinctive tone (however with a reduced neck mass, they may end up very similar in tone).  Plus, I love J45s.  Can’t have too many…LOL.

Further discussion would be welcome, as I’m still torn as to what to do.  ARRRRRRGH!

Roger

[scriv58]

I experience pain in the same two joints. I sold my Martin HJ-38 due to the mod-v neck causing pain, and I really liked that guitar.  My two Waterloo models also were rehomed for the same reason. Fortunately my 57 CW and 48 LG-2 have comfortable necks, but still some pain.  A few months ago I lowered the tuning on my guitars a half step to E flat. They sounded strange the first day, then normal the next day. Helped the hand and the guitars seem more resonant.  Might be worth a try, and a capo is the solution for harmonica or group playing.

I don’t have any advice concerning altering your guitar neck. Best wishes on finding the solution.

p.s. I took some of the Martin sale money and bought a Stratocaster which I can play for longer periods with very little pain.

[MissouriPicker]

4 hours ago, fortyearspickn said:

If you can't play it without significant pain - the answer is obvious. 

I agree.  You want/need a guitar you can play without it hurting your hands.  The more painful it is/gets, the less you’re going to enjoy playing it.  So far, I don’t have any real difficulty with arthritis.  I get some pain and stiffness, but nothing that keeps me from playing my typically inept technique.   I understand the desire for a certain guitar, but maybe you can find something very similar to it (although i wouldn’t want to kill a dream either).  ……..Several years ago, (I won’t mention the brand), I had to have one of those guitars that had a wolf pack, or a bunch of horses running, or an eagle flying above the desert that was carved onto the top..   I kept it for less than a week, then returned it.  Nothing wrong that was apparent, aside from it being a total dud.  I suspect if it were a Gibson, I’d had given it more of a chance…….Anyway, RB, I hope you make the right choice for you.

[rct]

Life is too short to play guitars you can't play.  There is an entire ocean of guitars to play that you can play.  Trade it.

rct

[dhanners623]

There’s something to be said about having a guitar neck tailored to your hand….

Edited July 18, 2022 by dhanners623

[QuestionMark]

4 hours ago, rbpicker said:

 

  I played for a couple hours yesterday and this morning, my hand is hurting significantly.  BTW, my 45 Standard has never once caused any pain.

 

I am not a physical therapist or a doctor.  But, perhaps, the mistake was playing the new guitar for an extended period of time (two hours) that you have just acquired with a different neck shape than are accustomed to, too soon.  Playing any different guitar, with a neck shape or action that one is not yet really accustomed to for two hours, prior to one’s hand building up getting used to and accustomed to, the new shaped neck, before muscles and bones and joints have a chance to get used to and accustomed to it, potentially could result in a sore hand.  As you have indicated you have arthritis, all the more chance this could happen it would seem.   
 

I do not know the return policy on your guitar in terms of if it gives you a risk-free return chance to have the time to give you that chance.  Especially with the step backward now of having to give your hand some healing time from the initial extended play.  But,  reshaping the neck seems like a very drastic step with no guarantees and potentially seriously devaluing the resale of the guitar.  
 

Even if you did reshape the neck, I would still suggest when you get it back, still taking some time to get used to it’s then new neck to build up, to playing it for an extended time if your hand will allow it.

I have been through some forms of physical therapy or self physical therapy and building up tolerances to get used to and accustomed to certain physical movements often takes patience and a near daily focus on building endurance strength.   My suggestion is to also ask your doctor if there is any physical therapy exercises you can be directed to for this or a similar circumstance of building up hand endurance in view of the arthritis, if you have not already done so. Or even checking out hand physical therapies on YouTube…although I assume you already have consulted a professional or done a self study.  But, I can’t help but think that two hours on any new guitar shaped neck is an extended period  for anyone without the benefit of the hand getting used to or accustomed to the neck.

Just my thoughts.  But, again, I am not a physical therapist or doctor.

QM aka “Jazzman” Jeff

 

 

 

[egoidealmusic]

3 hours ago, QuestionMark said:

I am not a physical therapist or a doctor.  But, perhaps, the mistake was playing the new guitar for an extended period of time (two hours) that you have just acquired with a different neck shape than are accustomed to, too soon.  Playing any different guitar, with a neck shape or action that one is not yet really accustomed to for two hours, prior to one’s hand building up getting used to and accustomed to, the new shaped neck, before muscles and bones and joints have a chance to get used to and accustomed to it, potentially could result in a sore hand.  As you have indicated you have arthritis, all the more chance this could happen it would seem.   
 

I do not know the return policy on your guitar in terms of if it gives you a risk-free return chance to have the time to give you that chance.  Especially with the step backward now of having to give your hand some healing time from the initial extended play.  But,  reshaping the neck seems like a very drastic step with no guarantees and potentially seriously devaluing the resale of the guitar.  
 

Even if you did reshape the neck, I would still suggest when you get it back, still taking some time to get used to it’s then new neck to build up, to playing it for an extended time if your hand will allow it.

I have been through some forms of physical therapy or self physical therapy and building up tolerances to get used to and accustomed to certain physical movements often takes patience and a near daily focus on building endurance strength.   My suggestion is to also ask your doctor if there is any physical therapy exercises you can be directed to for this or a similar circumstance of building up hand endurance in view of the arthritis, if you have not already done so. Or even checking out hand physical therapies on YouTube…although I assume you already have consulted a professional or done a self study.  But, I can’t help but think that two hours on any new guitar shaped neck is an extended period  for anyone without the benefit of the hand getting used to or accustomed to the neck.

Just my thoughts.  But, again, I am not a physical therapist or doctor.

QM aka “Jazzman” Jeff

 

 

 

I'd second this.  I have a 50s J-45 and it has a really chunky neck (I'm guessing like the one you initially had), and while I don't have the same medical issues (yet) it took my hand a good while to really get used to it.  I absolutely love how it feels and plays, so it's usually what's next to me.  I will, though, put it up and pull out my American Eagle LG which has, by comparison, a really slender neck to play for a few days.  When I switch back to the J-45, the neck feels absolutely huge again.

 

I'd play on it a little let--maybe 30 minutes a pop--for the next few days just to see if you adjust to it.  If not, and you love the guitar and how it sounds in every other way, and you don't imagine trying to sell it later, get that neck shaved down!

 

If I ever get the point where the neck is causing me pain this is exactly what I'll do.

[jedzep]

I seem to adjust to different neck shapes easily, it's narrow string spacing that makes me reject a guitar.  Yet, even though I have times it's a strain or pain to play, if I trace backward to what I have been using my old hands for, I can almost always connect their condition to what I've been doing with them during the rest of the time.  I'm in light construction and live a moderately rustic self-sufficient environment, firewood, carpentry, repairs, etc.  I've had to be more mindful about the level of abuse I subject my mitts to, and find that rest and caution leads to more playing time and less play strain.

[BigKahune]

I frequent the Lounge forum which tends to have more electric players. There, over the last few years, this “neck shape - pain” topic has come  up a coupla times. As I recall, some of the players with trouble preferred the “V”/“soft-V” shapes.

Having previously found the V comfortable, it should work out for you.

If you made modification and didn’t like it, you should be able to recover some of the value by selling it.

[MorrisrownSal]

I’d sell it before altering the neck…

 

by the way the same thing happened to me… with a Subaru Forrester in 2012. You are getting off easy.

[Dave F]

Send it back. Buy my '32 L00 Reissue with  a soft vee 

[Larsongs]

If you bought it new I'd seriously think about returning.. How many J45 models are there? About 30 or so? I wouldn't void my Warranty & take a chance somebody might screw it up worse...

 

[rbpicker]

Wow, Sal.  Now I don’t feel so bad!   Can’t return it Dave and Larsongs.   As I mentioned above I traded another for it and my trade in sold the next day.  Can’t unwind the deal.

Question Mark mentioned in his post that I may have played it for an excessive amount of time, given that it’s a new neck shape to me.  He may be on to something.  I’ve decided to give it some time and approach it more gradually, hoping that I can sneak up on the issue and grow into it gradually.  My tendency is to keep it…it just sounds fabulous, even as new as it is, and it still needs to do a lot of opening up. And it sounds different from my Standard.

These J 45s are really something.

Roger

 

Edited July 19, 2022 by rbpicker

[Larsongs]

If it’s a sale made within 45 days, if they’re a reputable Store, I would think they’d let you exchange it for another new Guitar that has the same retail Price.. Like for like. As long as your Guitar is in perfect condition… They might even end up making something on the deal.. 

[BluesKing777]

 

What about giving the (new) Gibson 60s style J45s a go? Thinner nut, neck....

They have a black one with white pickguard and quote, comfy in any position! 😁: 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/OCRS4560EBN--gibson-acoustic-60s-j-45-original-ebony

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

[Murph]

8 hours ago, rbpicker said:

Question Mark mentioned in his post that I may have played it for an excessive amount of time, given that it’s a new neck shape to me.  He may be on to something.  I’ve decided to give it some time and approach it more gradually, 

 

I'm pretty sure that would be my approach as well.

My body has always had "traveling pains". Always, even when I was a young man. Granted, I was pretty rough on it.

I road motorcycles since age 13, in the Arizona desert as a kid, racing, exploring and wrecking often. We partied hard, worked day jobs in construction (and later demolition), gigged 2/3/4 nights a week, drank heavy, smoked cigarettes and stuff, and everything else freaks did in the 70's and 80's (and, unfortunately through the 90's and beyond). Hunted, fished, demolished, crashed, and burned.

When I finally cleaned up, I noticed I had a lot of "bad body parts". Bad knee. Bad back. Bad ankle, etc.

However, I can still adjust to just about any situation and prevail. I just need a little more time than I used to.

Give it a little time, you can always swap it off.

My best.

Ben.

[rbpicker]

Thanks BK777 and  Ben,  

BK, I'm a little gun-shy about the adjustable bridge configuration on the 60s models.  Some say that they’re ok, but… also, I like the nut width of the Standard and 50s versions.  

Ben,  While I didn’t travel as rough of roads as you describe, I do tend to try and approach things like I did in the 60s and 70s.  Then I realize that I’m not a young man any longer and I need to slow down.  I’m hoping this approach will work as I’m already attached to this geetar.

Roger