Foreign-made guitars and sweat-shops

[sparquelito]

A friend and fellow moderator on another guitar web forum recently admonished us all to only buy American guitars.

In his opinion, guitars made cheaply overseas are made of lesser-quality woods, and are most likely built in sweatshops with terrible work conditions, and no respirators to protect the workers from glue fumes, paint fumes, and wood dust.

 

I told him this morning that I agree with the spirit of his posting, if not the letter.

 

The reality is that we live in a free market (here in the USA, the UK, Canada, Israel, and in most civilized parts of the world).

 

That means that the consumers are free to purchase goods and services from a great variety of sources. In most instances, said consumers wish to buy things at a reasonable price.

And if the quality is roughly the same (or even close) between domestic and foreign-made items, they would rather pay the lowest price possible.

 

This explains the popularity of large retail chain stores like Walmart.

 

When I went on a quest this past year to buy new motorcycles for myself and my wife, I did a lot of homework. I evaluated what my desires and requirements were (and the same for my wife) against what brands and models were available, and how well they were reviewed. We also went to a lot of local shops and threw our leg over a LOT of motorcycles.

 

Both of us would love to have bought American-made motorcycles, but none of the American companies made anything that even remotely resembled what I was looking for (a light street/trail bike). And when I say 'American companies', I am talking about Harley Davidson, Indian, and Victory motorcycles.

 

Similarly, none of those manufacturers made a middle-weight cruiser that was light and maneuverable enough for my wife's petite frame and short legs.

 

In the end, we bought Japanese motorcycles that were, each in their own way, perfect for us.

 

One of the helicopters I fly at work is an Airbus UH-72A Lakota.

It's designed in Germany, France, and Spain, and assembled in a factory in Mississippi. Many of the parts on the helicopters, including the main transmission, are made in Japan by Kawasaki. The American helicopter market was chock-full of helicopters that would have met most of the Army's requirements during the acquisition process, but only Airbus (then Eurocopter) met all of them.

 

Okay, back to guitars;

There is a huge market in the free world for guitars.

Millions of kids fancy that they would like to play guitar, and millions of adults pick up the hobby as well.

 

Very few of them can afford a proper American-made guitar like a Gibson, and so therefore most of them buy less-expensive imports like Squier, Epiphone, and First Act. And the market is saturated with high-dollar and low-dollar choices like Washburn, Dean, PRS, Gibson, Fender, Rickenbacker, Jay Turser, Samick, Cort, and many others. Some of them American-made, some of them crafted in China or Indonesia.

 

The goodness and the badness of all this is that we true guitar players are both blessed and cursed with an abundance of guitars to choose from, both new and used.

 

And very often, we find ourselves holding a guitar that, although inexpensively-made in some distant land, is quite a good instrument. (By that I mean it feels right, plays good, sounds wonderful, and it stays in tune.) It was probably made on a Tuesday and not a Monday.

 

So as consumers free to choose, very often we choose a lesser-priced instrument over a proper American guitar worth ten times the amount we paid at the cash register.

 

I own one or two guitars that were made in the United States.

A Gibson Les Paul and a Kramer, to name the US-made ones right off the top of my head.

 

But everything else I own (and I own a LOT of guitars) was made in either Mexico, Japan, Korea, Indonesia, China, or India. And every single one I own passes that magical test for an acceptable guitar (one that feels right, plays good, sounds wonderful, and it stays in tune).

 

Are many of them made in horrible overseas sweat-shops, and put together by small children who are worked long hours with no breaks, no food, and no respirators?

 

I like to think not.

I have done a little homework on most of the overseas guitar operations, and I can find no evidence of such work conditions over there.

 

I am open to viewing fresh evidence, however.

And if some company is found to be guilty of having their guitars constructed in such horrible sweat-shop conditions, I will gladly stop buying their guitars.

 

Is that fair?

What say you, my Gibson guitar forum friends?

Clearly, we all favor our quality, American-made Gibsons.

 

But is there a legitimate fear that by purchasing anything else we are contributing to slave-labor work conditions overseas?

 

[ReGuitar]

[OldCowboy]

I'm old enough and non PC enough that I should likely qualify as fearful of a great many things. At the same time, I'm sufficiently open minded and liberal to qualify as fearful of a great many other things. Then, there are more things out there that refuse to be categorized of which I should probably be fearful as well. Making a career out of being fearful scares me more than all of the above taken collectively. I own exactly two foreign-made instruments, both Epiphones - a mandolin and a guitar. When I sit down with either, fear is not present. Caution and preparedness, are - to me - imperative. Fear, on the other hand, is not. Does this answer the question? I'm afraid I'm not sure....

[sparquelito]

I think that more than answers the question, Old Cowboy.

 

And thanks for posting that video, ReGuitar.

I just checked all my guitars;

none of them were made by Cort that I can tell.

[Notes_Norton]

I own two USA Parkers, one USA Gibson, one Korean Epiphone and one Indonesian LTD. Oh, and I have a Japanese Fender Jazz Bass.

 

I drive a USA built car.

 

I own a sax from an Austin Texas company but made in Taiwan (no good saxes are made in the USA anymore), another sax from Italy, plus another 1925 model made in Cleveland Ohio.

 

I shop in as many small, local businesses as I can.

 

My Mom&Pop music store is my first choice, and only when Jeff can't get it will I go on-line or to GC.

 

When I go out to eat, I stay away from chains and dine at locally owned restaurants - I haven't even had a fast-food burger or anything else since the 1970s, and other than attending birthday parties and the like, I haven't been to a chain regular restaurant in almost that long.

 

Produce, hardware. whatever I can, local is better, even if I pay a bit more.

 

Why? Do unto others. My duo is a local business, and I feel it's as important for me to patronize local businesses as I believe they should hire my band.

 

It is a world market and the corporate giant influence is impossible to avoid. We all make choices. Is it OK to feel proud of buying a USA guitar and drive a foreign car? I say, don't worry about it. Buy what you want, what you can afford, and what your conscience tells you to do.

 

We are all going to buy USA and Foreign goods from local businesses and corporate chains. It's the way of the world.

 

Insights and incites by Notes

[ReGuitar]

I think that more than answers the question, Old Cowboy.

 

And thanks for posting that video, ReGuitar.

I just checked all my guitars;

none of them were made by Cort that I can tell.

 

Cort produces guitars to Ibanez, Parkwood, Squier, G&L, among others.

 

Regarding to the video, although my Cort sounds and play well, I wish I had seen that before.

 

Cheers

[zigzag]

Capitalism on a global scale. The sweat shop dilemma is obviously a valid moral consideration.

 

Carvin/Kiesel makes great guitars that are also great values, and they are made in the US. They are priced between imports and high end US makers, e.g. Gibson. They should be selling more. What seems to hurt them is not being able to actually test one, so you don't know what you're getting unless you already own one or know someone who does. They are made for players. If you don't care what logo appears on the headstock then they are worth a look.

 

I rolled the dice when I bought my first and only Carvin, and now it is my go-to guitar. If I was in the market for another one, I wouldn't hesitate to buy it from them. They have a terrific return policy, and if you don't like the pups, you can obviously change them out.

[charlie brown]

I have a fair amount of guitars...more than I "need," for sure! And, probably, more that I deserve ?!

And, the vast majority, are "Made in USA!" Vintage, and newer. However, I do own a Korean Dano-12-string, that I really

like (no, it's not like my Rickenbacker's, but it does the quite job well, anyway), and a Japanese made Gretsch Duo-jet TCP,

and my latest purchase, is a Made in Indonesia Squire Bass VI. It's "Awesome!" Sound, playability, build and material

quality, everything! I got IT, because I always wanted a "short scale" bass, just to have available, and to learn some

"bass" riffs and runs, for fun! Not being a "Bass player," per se, I didn't want or need to spend a fortune on a "Great

Bass," for my meager needs. What I ended up with, was an affordable, GREAT bass, anyway. While it may differ, in some

way(s) from the Vintage Fender version, you couldn't prove it, by me! And, at 1/10 or less, the cost of a Vintage Fender

version, it is perfect, for my needs. So, "horses, for courses," I guess?

 

Now, was the Squire Bass VI built in a "Sweat Shop" facility? I Seriously doubt it, given the quality!

More like a "state of the art," or near enough, facility, I'd guess.

 

CB

[C-RAM]

 

I own one or two guitars that were made in the United States.

A Gibson Les Paul and a Kramer, to name the US-made ones right off the top of my head.

 

But everything else I own (and I own a LOT of guitars) was made in either Mexico, Japan, Korea, Indonesia, China, or India. And every single one I own passes that magical test for an acceptable guitar (one that feels right, plays good, sounds wonderful, and it stays in tune).

 

 

Like you, I own a lot of guitars. We seem to be about the same age that we could probably speak about the old days and 'pawn shop guitars' - the ones you wouldn't be caught dead with, Teiscos and the like, gaudy and cheap instruments made from inferior materials, bad-playing AND sounding.

 

We know that the rules have changed, and nowadays it's tough to find a really bad guitar - even inexpensive imported guitars (from anywhere) can be pretty nice-playing and sounding. I think the secret behind all this is modern manufacturing processes - the formulas to creating a good instrument are ubiquitous now, so anyone with decent production machinery can do (copy) it.

 

One of my favorite brands is Hofner - I've collected a hollowbody, three semi-hollowbodies, two nylon-string and maybe five solidbodies from them, all from their Chinese cooperative. Some time ago, they decided to actually BUILD a proprietary factory in China to lower manufacturing costs, yet still control key processes; the following excerpt is taken from another forum:

 

It is worth bearing in mind that the Chinese production plant is wholly owned by Hofner, a most unusual situation, that few other manufacturers have bothered to achieve. They have done a huge amount of work developing the plant and training the staff, often in Germany, to ensure that China has become an extension of Hagenau. Many other manufacturers just put the work out in China to whoever offers the lowest tender, something that Hofner has completely avoided. The Chinese plant is one of only a handful to have received both a grade A production certificate and a grade A export certificate from the government.

 

The fact that Hofner is building bodies and necks in China and then taking the components to Hagenau demonstrates their faith in their own manufacturing processes while allowing them to offer you a first class instrument at a reasonable price.

 

True there are still a lot of cheap poor quality instruments coming out of China, generally aimed as beginners guitars and sold in packs around Christmas time, but these have nothing to do with Hofner and what they have achieved over there. Hofner has definitely entered a new era in manufacturing and brought the company alive with a good range of interesting guitars at prices to suit everyone. We need to get used to this and worry less about exactly where parts were made and concentrate more on the models they make, encouraging them to explore further with both retro and new models. They have the capability to do this now but will be hampered if we all keep on about where the body was made or who screwed the pickups on etc.

 

Personally I applaud them for taking the difficult route and setting up a wholly owned and tightly controlled Plant of their own when they could have taken the easy option and just subbed the work out to any old factory. This really is a new era for Hofner and I think it is going to be at least as exciting as it was back the early 1960s.

 

As for your concerns about children and slave labor work conditions, I don't believe this comes into play as far as musical instruments are concerned; shoddy workmanship is a hallmark of forced labor, and it just isn't found on most modern instruments. Even the flaws of factory seconds take a good deal of scrutiny to discover. I would also think there is not an extravagant amount of hand work to be done in building guitars, save for sanding, inspecting, installing hardware - most machine work wouldn't be entrusted to children, would it?

[rct]

The older I get, the more money I have, the more I don't buy a bunch of guitars. I buy what I've been using successfully since the 70's. Visit the companies, I've been to two of them, one of them twice. Someday I'll get to Gibson. I have one Squier Hello Kitty that was a gift, and one Mexican Esquire which is currently the only way to get one without dumping 4 grand on a pinstriped one that Leo never made. If they made a Yankee Standard Equire I'd trade this one tomorrow.

 

The other 9 are American guitars, and I don't really need anything more. A Firebird maybe. And who doesn't want three more Martins?

 

Everything else, and I do mean everything, is derivative at best, an outright copy at worst. Why buy so close to a Tele when you can just buy a Tele and be done with it? Why buy a copy when you can just buy the real one?

 

I have flirted with all of those companies, had an Epiphone or three for some times in my life, recently traded two because I just didn't bond with them at all. Had other companies during the 80s when it was cool to be NotFender and NotGibson, but always traded back to them.

 

My only advice is that if you are happy with what we've been using my whole life, buy them.

 

If you don't like the thought(s) of what the other companies mean, do what I do, and don't buy them. To me, they mean Derivative and Copy, we don't know what to do so we knock off the big guys. Who needs that? I don't care about their factories because I don't buy them, that's on them.

 

rct

[merciful-evans]

I was already aware of & saddened by the Cort debacle.

 

I have American (Gibson / Rickenbacker), English (Fylde), Spanish (Camps), Japanese (Jackson), Korean (Squier / PRS-SE) and Chinese (Epiphone, Hagstrom, Hofner) guitars.

 

 

I'm grateful C-RAM for his info & clean bill of health re: Hofner. I can't afford an L5 so its just as well I love my Hofner archtop.

 

Of course Epiphone also have their own factory in Qingdao China, so I trust that's also 'clean'.

 

I have never been able to find out where the Chinese Hagstrom guitars are produced. The company is Swedish with a proud history, so I hope that counts for something. The Hagstrom just so happens to have my favourite tone over & above any of the other e-guitars.

[Big Bill]

I always eat American cheese, does that count.

 

 

Didn't Cort used to go by the name of "Cortez"?

[Dub-T-123]

I think all of my guitars are made in USA actually :0

[rct]

 

I made it two minutes. If you buy from these clowns, you deserve whatever you get. I know, don't tell me, "...it's a Les Paul KILLER!". I know, I've heard it a million times and no, it isn't, it's a Cort. No, I've never owned one, never needed to, not when I could just buy what they were copying.

 

rct

[Dub-T-123]

Cort actually manufacture guitars for several brands. I have a hard time imagining any factories in Asian counties with acceptable conditions for the workers.

 

Some factories have nets set up outside the building so that workers can't jump out the window to commit suicide. That's how bad they are!

[SHO]

Mine, that I still own today, are all made in USA and Japan except for my first electric ever which I guess was made wherever somewhat decent Gibson SG clones were made in the late 70s / early 80s. I don't have it here to look, and I can't even remember if it's printed anywhere on it.

 

Not that I care all that much. It's terrible that working conditions are like that in parts of the world still, it really is. But if I cared all that much about it I'd have two cans and a piece of string for a phone and somehow manage to post this message to the Internet by banging two rocks together while being completely naked.

 

You probably would be too.

[Rabs]

Foreign depends on where you come from :)

 

If you are talking about big scale Asian companies then that's something different that anything that's not made in the USA...

 

So you don't mind your Marshall amps being foreign then?? :)

 

 

There are many many Luthiers around the world, a lot of them make good stuff..

 

;)

[Cougar]

A friend and fellow moderator on another guitar web forum recently admonished us all to only buy American guitars.

In his opinion, guitars made cheaply overseas are made of lesser-quality woods, and are most likely built in sweatshops with terrible work conditions, and no respirators to protect the workers from glue fumes, paint fumes, and wood dust.

 

I don't know what guitars he's talking about, but unless he's been in these "sweatshops" and has first-hand evidence of these claims, I don't think he has any basis to be admonishing anybody.

[milod]

I don't know about Cort problems, but I know a bit about South Korea and how much of its politics and perspectives have changed the past 30 years since I first was there as a journalist.

 

Basically South Korea made a difficult, and often ethically questionable switch from being a third world nation where one might see little old ladies pottying in a ditch alongside the road and other little old ladies cutting grass in a national park with hand scissors.

 

But as the switch evolved into being in ways an Asian equivalent of a European economy, so also arose political issues affecting the business and job marketplace. Low-cost labor becomes increasingly expensive; work is changed to allow lesser skill sets and thus lower paychecks; more skilled people are more likely to make more money, at least up to a point.

 

Again, as in the U.S., one might make a case that labor unions often are counterproductive in terms of job retention and wages. That's to an extent what helped the more culturally advanced Asian nations do increasingly well as they competed against U.S. products increasingly well and eventually with rough equivalency of both quality and price tags.

 

And then... it's no secret that a lotta major Japanese and now South Korean firms outsource to lower-cost labor - the same factor that brought their nations' economic miracles.

 

Some 40 years ago I was rather impressed with the (then "West") German labor union reps I encountered doing a series on my area's trade with Europe.

 

The Union guys there bragged about their proven top line value to their companies, how they were looking forward to changes in manufacturing and improving their members' skill sets to encounter and do well under those changes.

 

In my own line of work I've seen computers and "stuff" bring question of how many humans really are necessary now, let alone in the future; nobody at any level is doing much but looking to figure ways to not change in hopes "stuff" wouldn't change.

 

South Korean work conditions are different from North America and Europe, but so is the culture. Increasing "workplaces" everywhere are windowless, or functionally so here too. Union value varies from industry and U.S. subculture to subculture. Ain't seen too many union printers lately, regardless of high skills and proven productivity in a world that no longer required those skills.

 

I dunno. Corts so-named never did much for me as a picker. Epiphones MIC have, even the super-cheapies. The Epi PR4e "value pack" is worth the $150-200 just for the nice little guitar - I've used one of 'em in kiddie concerts with kids doing singalongs, etc. Plugged in it sounds fine. Ain't a J45 or D28, but that's not its job.

 

m

[sparquelito]

Foreign depends on where you come from :)

 

If you are talking about big scale Asian companies then that's something different that anything that's not made in the USA...

 

So you don't mind your Marshall amps being foreign then?? :)

 

 

There are many many Luthiers around the world, a lot of them make good stuff..

 

;)

 

 

Rabs,

 

I really should have been more specific, and described the areas of concern as 'large-scale, low-quality factories in non-Western, third-world $hit-holes'.

 

You do know that I wasn't calling the UK 'foreign', right?

 

I did, after all, say, "The reality is that we live in a free market (here in the USA, the UK, Canada, Israel, and in most civilized parts of the world)".

:unsure:

[sparquelito]

I don't know about Cort problems, but I know a bit about South Korea and how much of its politics and perspectives have changed the past 30 years since I first was there as a journalist.

 

m

 

Thanks for that perspective, milod!

 

Very good and educational stuff, sir.

[Dub-T-123]

I don't know what guitars he's talking about, but unless he's been in these "sweatshops" and has first-hand evidence of these claims, I don't think he has any basis to be admonishing anybody.

I see your point but I have to disagree.

 

For example; I have never been to the surface of the Sun, but I can tell you it's hot.

 

With that said, I don't see myself in a position to go around "admonishing" folks

['Scales]

I understand if older folks still visualise the Chinese (and other's of the region) as smok and conical straw hat wearing push bike riders, but as this has become a very significant trade partner for us in Oz I have been astounded at recent conventions to see and hear the current demographics and the ways of daily life of the modern (urban at least) Chinese. The rate at which a middle class is being developed - and that means 10's of thousands in USD income - and the consistencies with 'developed' nations in the young people's aspirations, uptake and immersion in social media etc I find amazing. I'm not old enough to have known the way and speed in which Japan developed (which must have been spectacular in itself). It's a big task for China but already their corporations are becoming of a scale the Japanese were not so long ago. Interesting to see how they manage the challenges.

[quapman]

Huck me in the don't care pile.

I really don't. I know what I like. I buy what I like.

Sweat shops are nothing new,surprising or shocking.

 

I'm with rct on this. If people want to waste their money on garbage I really couldn't care less.

[Rabs]

Did you ever see Rob Chapman when he visited the factory that's making his guitars?