The truth about Historic line

[Zygis]

J45nick,

Sorry did not tried to trash everything Gibson and maybe statement 1 of hundred is a bit arrogant, but gems are hard to find of any brand . Just thought  maybe some harsh criticism will be heard and some changes will be done (especially because only couple actual impressions in forums of Historic line). Maybe its harder to see, but the J-45 '42 historic's photo also shows really floppy built.

And to be fair - yeah i am a bit jealous to you guys, that i still did not find a  right Gibson after all these years of searching and trying really a lot of them 🙂

btw. i am in Europe.

And also i must mention that couple years ago i did played few Gibsons i still remember. One of them was vintage Hummingbird which was unforgettable experience , but it was not for my pocket then.

Have a great weekend, everybody!

 

[zombywoof]

The only issue I have with the new Historic Line is the rather hefty price tag which I assume has a lot to do with the upcharge for the nuked top.  But I still think it is a crying shame that Collings offers a more period correct inspired pre-1941  J35 than Gibson at a similar price point (minus the terrified top) . 

[slimt]

1 hour ago, j45nick said:

Since your goal here appears to be to trash everything Gibson, maybe this isn't the forum for you.  Why did you even buy a Gibson, since you think that only one in a hundred is a "fine sounding instrument"? It makes no sense at all that you would even consider one.

Judging from the photos you provided, the glue issues with your AJ are real, and you had every right to return it. The photos you show of the J-45, however, do not show similar issues on anything like the same scale, so it's hard to justify your criticism without further evidence.

Others here have inspected their instruments and found no issues on the scale of those in your AJ.

Are you located in the US, or another country? There are not a lot of dealers that have multiple Historics of any model in stock.

You've made your point, and it's clear that Gibsons are not the guitars for you. Maybe you should just move on and find guitars that better meet your expectations.

Totally agree.  Seems like most of these New zero  post folks are just here to stir the pot.   Ive see a few , like the rest of you.    And as the story goes if the OP is that picky. It should of been looked at prior to purchase.   
 

And during these unpleasant times of the pandemic. Im sure theres a few new faces and these guitar building shops learning the ropes.    Gibson was closed and in the middle of a expansion as well.  

[generaldreedle]

I've never looked on the inside of any of my guitars to check the glue marks.  Maybe I should I guess, I just never saw a reason to if I was happy with the sound

[Dave F]

5 hours ago, Zygis said:

......I am not saying Gibson has never made fine sounding instruments, but its 1 out 100 at best.

If you really believed this you would had never purchased a new Gibson sight unseen. You would be playing the lottery.

I've bought over 50 new Gibson guitars.  Two had to be returned. One was replaced and one was repaired. Not a big deal to me when the company backs up it's product.

Price wise, when Gibson advertises a J35 guitar at $5500 msrp and $4800 map, the street price should be around $3300  

Collins J35 ranges $4900-$6000 depending on options. I don't know if or how much those prices can be negotiated but being a limited quantity with a small distribution network, I doubt you would get much off. I've only played one and it was a very nice guitar. Would I pay $2K more for it? I'd have to like it a lot. 

Small time local luthier built guitars can also be very nice ( I have a great L00 my local luthier made) but they are usually priced a little high and have a poor resale value.

Good luck with your outcome.

[Lars68]

9 hours ago, Lars68 said:

 

I agree with this. Hide glue is tricky to work with.

Lars

 

Just to be clear regarding my own post above, the fact that hide glue is tricky to work with is only a probable explanation of the issue, but BY NO MEANS an excuse. A guitar should not leave the factory looking like yours under any circumstances. Period.

Lars

[zombywoof]

1 hour ago, Dave F said:

Irice wise, when Gibson advertises a J35 guitar at $5500 msrp and $4800 map, the street price should be around $3300  

Collins J35 ranges $4900-$6000 depending on options. I don't know if or how much those prices can be negotiated but being a limited quantity with a small distribution network, I doubt you would get much off. I've only played one and it was a very nice guitar. Would I pay $2K more for it? I'd have to like it a lot. 

Small time local luthier built guitars can also be very nice ( I have a great L00 my local luthier made) but they are usually priced a little high and have a poor resale value.

 

 

Sweetwater and others big box stores give the price of a 1936 J35 at $4800.  The basic non-baked Sitka top Collings CJ 35 sells for around $125 more.   How negotiable these prices are I do not have a clue never having attempted to haggle.  According to his website, a basic Kopp K35 sells for around $5K.  One with a baked red spruce top though will run you around $7K.  At this late point in the game though, I do not have a whole lot to say musically so cannot rationalize  spending a whole lot on a guitar.  All though are more than I would want to spend.

Edited October 10, 2020 by zombywoof

[BluesKing777]

 

Well........I had a closer look at a couple of acoustics I own.....first up as I walk in my music room is my decoy guitar that I put there for an opportunistic guitar thief to steal first! Hummingbird COPY of unknown origin.....not one glue spot anywhere. Zip. I took each guitar into the daylight near the glass back doors of our rumpus room.

Then I got out my 2002 Gibson J50 - not one blip from the Ren Ferguson era! Zip. Pretty perfect in there! I am starting to worry they didn’t use ANY glue.

Then I grabbed the 1937 Gibson L-0 and that is also a work of art in there! Zip famous glue spills.

The heater is running on extreme for the Boss and I got hot lugging those around, so can’t comment on my other guitars.

So I reiterate what I said in my earlier reply - there is just no way that glue was done at the Gibson factory, but I also see no reason for a dealer to ‘repair’ failed heat damaged bracing and leave it looking like that.

Nope, that is a home repair. If it was done at Gibson, they may as well give up.

 

BluesKing777.

 

Edit:  Played my Waterloo WL-14X and was reminded of the story of Bill Collings and the beginnings of his Waterloo range. After years of training his staff to remove all signs of glue drops on the Collings guitars, all of a sudden the same highly trained craftsman are now told to leave the glue splatter in the new Waterloo Guitars! ‘But, but, but, Bill, I don’t like it - the glue has to come off!’  He replies: ‘Leave the glue splats!’ ‘Stop polishing that guitar - it has to look rough like in the 30s!’

And my Waterloo X has the creepiest little perfectly straight line of glue across a back brace that looks like somebody has put there later.......

 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2020 by BluesKing777

[MissouriPicker]

I’ve got 8 Gibbys and none of them look like this.  The OP’s post made me check the inside of my new J200 with a flashlight and mirror.  It’s immaculate.

[bobouz]

A few thoughts & observations:

- Gibson and others have historically had hot & cold periods of production in their various factories.  I currently have six Montana acoustics ranging from the year 2000 to 2015, and have owned & traded/sold many others within that time frame.  Imho, build quality remained stable and high during those years (Ren left in 2012).  Almost every complaint I've seen online within that time frame (& even to date), has had to do with smaller finish-type details rather than structural matters.  By comparison, I continue to read at UMGF about recent Martins needing neck resets within a few years of purchase (as well as binding popping loose at the waist).  These have included high end models such as their Authentic Series.  Stuff happens, but I'd much rather have it be cosmetic as opposed to structural.

- When considering a Gibson (or any guitar for that matter), perfection is very rarely attained - so it comes down to weighing all factors including the good, bad, & ugly.  Perhaps the tone or playability is so spectacular that it cancels out smaller negative details, or perhaps a run-out top is such an eyesore that it becomes a deal breaker.  We all have to decide for ourselves based on each individual piece.  But to generalize based on a few examples is a sure way to miss a gem.

- Gibson's Montana workforce may be in a phase where they are experiencing high turnover, or other production issues.  This doesn't excuse, but could help explain less than stellar detail workmanship from time to time.  If I were a betting person, my guess would be that Gibson's wage rate & benefits will not attract many long-term employees compared to the union days in Kalamazoo, where many workers spent most of their adult lives working for a company, honing their skills, and retired from said company.  Think many people end up retiring from Gibson these days?  Just a hunch, but I doubt it.  Staff turnover can be a killer, and coupled with production quotas, the possibility of a down period re the final product becomes enhanced.

- To the OP:  You did the right thing by returning an instrument that was disappointing, but rather than tearing down the building, continue to keep one eye open for a Gibson (new or used) that touches your soul.  Someday, it just might happen.     

[mecatina]

I purchased a 2020 Gibson 1936 AJ Historic Collection in April and it does not show like this - practically no sign of hide glue anywhere.

After owning a couple of dozen Martins and Gibsons including a D28 Marquis, HD28V, Custom OM-18 Sinker Mahogany, OM-42 and two AJs  (one a Luthier's Choice) -  I honestly believe this one is here to stay.  If the opportunity arises - Try ONE !!!

 Also own a 2019 Banner J45 Custom 19-fret  (almost identical to the Historic version except for the tuners)  - also stellar!

 

[Leonard McCoy]

I'd guess not a Gibson or a case of badly reglued braces.

Edited October 11, 2020 by Leonard McCoy

[zombywoof]

5 hours ago, bobouz said:

A few thoughts & observations:

- Gibson and others have historically had hot & cold periods of production in their various factories.  I currently have six Montana acoustics ranging from the year 2000 to 2015, and have owned & traded/sold many others within that time frame.  Imho, build quality remained stable and high during those years (Ren left in 2012).  Almost every complaint I've seen online within that time frame (& even to date), has had to do with smaller finish-type details rather than structural matters.  By comparison, I continue to read at UMGF about recent Martins needing neck resets within a few years of purchase (as well as binding popping loose at the waist).  These have included high end models such as their Authentic Series.  Stuff happens, but I'd much rather have it be cosmetic as opposed to structural.

- Gibson's Montana workforce may be in a phase where they are experiencing high turnover, or other production issues.  This doesn't excuse, but could help explain less than stellar detail workmanship from time to time.  If I were a betting person, my guess would be that Gibson's wage rate & benefits will not attract many long-term employees compared to the union days in Kalamazoo, where many workers spent most of their adult lives working for a company, honing their skills, and retired from said company.  Think many people end up retiring from Gibson these days?  Just a hunch, but I doubt it.  Staff turnover can be a killer, and coupled with production quotas, the possibility of a down period re the final product becomes enhanced.

 

I am one of those who does not buy into the "good" year "bad" year thing.  OK, the late-1960s into the early-1980s is an exception.  But normally a few dogs will be sent out of the factory in any given year.  That said, Gibson has certainly been included in the list of the country's worst places to work for decades.  Even though my impression is that Bozeman operated almost as an independent shop, workers would have still had at least their wages and benefits dictated by college educated bean counters for whom the bottom line is everything.  As to what the turnover at Bozeman has been I am clueless.   Ren certainly had a daunting task upon establishing the Bozeman factory as the majority of Gibson's remaining skilled workforce refused to make the move from Kalamazoo to Nashville in the mid-1980s.  Maybe this is why in the early years of the Bozeman Custom Shop, Ren showed an uncanny ability to turn raw talent into skilled luthiers - guys like Walker, Kopp and Triggs.  But they all left within a few years.  As to why they chose to depart though I am also clueless.     

 

Edited October 11, 2020 by zombywoof

[bobouz]

54 minutes ago, zombywoof said:

I am one of those who does not buy into the "good" year "bad" year thing.  OK, the late-1960s into the early-1980s is an exception.  But normally a few dogs will be sent out of the factory in any given year.  That said, Gibson has certainly been included in the list of the country's worst places to work for decades. 

 

I tend to think of it more as up or down eras (hopefully rather short-lived when down).  Even Ren made note of this in the 3-part video series he did with Music Villa’s Tony P regarding his years with Gibson.  I recall him specifically citing certain periods where they were at the top of their game, and others where they were not - for a variety of reasons.

[PickitPaul]

I see in the pics of the new Gibson that they still are putting the locator hole in bridge plate too close to the bridge pin hole - this one looks close, but not impeding the edge of pin hole like on my J45.  Also will get worse over time with use.   

[JuanCarlosVejar]

On 10/9/2020 at 4:45 AM, Zygis said:

Hi guys! Risking to be attacked buy rotten tomates, but still want to be honest and share my experience. Recently i decided to pull the trigger on Gibson. And not any regular gibson, but one of the best their offerings - Advanced Jumbo 1936 Historic line.

Whats really makes me mad is their slogan - Greatest guitar makers in the world? Wow, what a statement. I ordered Gibson AJ 1936 Historic from 2020. Thats a 5k guitar for you. The fit and finish was mediocre but acceptable (tool marks on fretboard, poor nitro application etc), but when i put down the mirror inside the guitar i laughed and cried at the same time. Its not just like some hide glue access in interior (brownish color), the whole inside was like a maple syrup festival. It looked like it was constructed by 10 years old child and there is no irony in this statement - i never saw this kind of quality even in cheap guitars. Whats crazy, the guitar still sounded decent, but nothing amazing. I asked the shop to take photos of more Historic line guitars interiors, and they all had a lot of glue marks all over, though i must admit not so much as my AJ which i returned immediately. Considering the price payed, Gibsons are far inferior to Boutiqe builders at the same price point. All of this is not hateful comment. I just think its not fair to wave a "greatest guitar makers" flag against real guitar makers, who actually creates musical art pieces. People should understand that Gibson just makes replicas of their own company history (and quite bad ones). 

 

Btw - that Redline case of which all rave about - was extremely poor quality - unstable when oppened because of metal supports positioned to close, glue marks all over and loose interior felt ends. Also the outsides vinyl black material was extremely wrinckeld on the edges - hard to believe its made by geib/tkl? Something is wrong with this eather...

Anyway, all the best for everybody, hope you will be more careful on Gibsonesque sound hunt!

I might be in the minority here but this doesn’t bother me at all ... it’s just glue .

 

The sound and tone of a guitar is subjective as well . I’m sorry Gibson wasn’t the brand for you.

 

 

JC

 

 

[JuanCarlosVejar]

On 10/9/2020 at 7:10 PM, Rip VanWinkle said:

I'd like to propose a different theory. Hide glue is tricky to work with I'm told. It sets up quickly and the joints to be glued together have to be at a close tolerance since hide glue doesn't "fill the joint" like Titebond. My understanding is that previously, the only joint that Gibson Acoustics did was the neck joint. They were a little cagey about it, but when most of us saw "Hide Glue" we assumed it was the whole thing. I suspect that the new Historic series took off like gangbusters.. Suddenly employees in Bozeman were pressed into service trying to work with hide glue gluing braces and tops while learning on the job. Some may be learning faster than others. Martin only had two people in the Custom Shop who knew how to build with hide glue several years ago when Dale retired. It maybe more folks now....

Your theory is wrong.Gibson offered all hide glue acoustics while Ren Ferguson was there and even after  that.

 

They did  HG series guitars for Wildwood:

 

JC

Edited October 20, 2020 by JuanCarlosVejar

[j45nick]

24 minutes ago, JuanCarlosVejar said:

Your theory is wrong.Gibson offered all hide glue acoustics while Ren Ferguson was there and even after  that.

 

They did  HG series guitars for Wildwood:

 

 

To be clear, Gibson has used hide glue for the top bracing on True Vintage (TV) series guitars and others for a number of years, in addition to using it universally for dovetail neck joints to make them practical to disassemble if required for a neck re-set.

There are plenty of workers there who are familiar with the use of of hide glue.

Maybe the OP's top was braced at 4:30 pm on Friday afternoon before a holiday, but it is not representative of the Gibson workmanship I have seen on any of the modern Gibsons I own.

[BoSoxBiker]

 I have a similar sort of question as related to JCV's thought a few posts back. Does this excess glue have any negative impact on the guitar?

[olie]

It may not have a negative impact on the guitar's tone but visually it looks as if someone went into work drunk and nobody noticed. That's a mess.

[J-200 Koa]

This seems fishy.  I would like to see some accompanying photos of the exterior to verify the guitar in question.

[Brucebubs]

I picked up a brand new 2020 Gibson Custom Shop Historic 1957 SJ-200 Vintage Sunburst yesterday.

I just checked inside my guitar with a mirror - there's nothing like the glue mess in the OP's pictures - very clean.

[ALD323]

On 10/20/2020 at 11:12 AM, JuanCarlosVejar said:

I might be in the minority here but this doesn’t bother me at all ... it’s just glue .

 

The sound and tone of a guitar is subjective as well . I’m sorry Gibson wasn’t the brand for you.

 

 

JC

 

 

Your in the minority you say???   Um yea, I would agree with you.

[BoSoxBiker]

17 hours ago, Brucebubs said:

I picked up a brand new 2020 Gibson Custom Shop Historic 1957 SJ-200 Vintage Sunburst yesterday.

I just checked inside my guitar with a mirror - there's nothing like the glue mess in the OP's pictures - very clean.

Mine (the pre-war version) is out on the rack this week. It was nothing like the OP's, either. The worst spot I found was like the OP's most minimum amount of glue spot.

[J185cat]

I have five Gibson acoustics dating back to 1994 and none of mine look ANYTHING like that.  My 2016 J45 is just immaculate in build execution and the easiest playing acoustic I have ever played.  On another thread I mentioned that I had purchased a Martin Custom Shop D28 same day as MissouriPicker got his J200.  I promised I would do a comparison to my Luther’s Choice AJ and that is coming.  I will discuss build quality in that and you may find it interesting.