badbluesplayer Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Because they don't sing. Consistently, for as long as I've been doing this, any band that has two or three apes standing around bashing their Flying Vs or Ripper Bass into submission and don't even own a vocal mic, you got volume problems. They don't care, never learned what a band is about and how it works. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Well Pip.. with age, comes wisdom, and the realization that the good lord only gave us two ear drums. no spares.. "Youth is Wasted on the Young..." Pip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Scales Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 "Youth is Wasted on the Young..." Pip. For you Pip. The incomparable mr Graney...have a listen PS I believe AC/Kuma is about as old age as you,..just not as old Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 For you Pip. The incomparable mr Graney...have a listen ... The vid clip isn't available here and all the links I tried had terrible sound-quality - so bad I couldn't make out the lyrics clearly nor could I find them on-line. I'll try again tomorrow. PS I believe AC/Kuma is about as old age as you,..just not as old ... Strangely enough no-one who is the same age as me is, somehow, quite as old as me... Pip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparquelito Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Here's my best advice to the original poster. Change up your practice geometry and set-up. Practice in the round, with everyone in a loose semicircle, and facing roughly toward the drummer. Set amps and PA speakers outside the circle, also facing inward. Each player has their amp behind them. All speakers (PA, amps, keyboard amps) are facing directly toward the drummer. Some advantages here: 1. The drummer can hear everyone else really well, and everyone can obviously hear the drummer 2. No need for separate monitors, as all sound is focused inward to roughly the middle of all the players 3. Every performer hears THEIR instrument the loudest, since their amp is directly behind them 3. Accordingly, the result is a slightly lower volume in the entire room. Only one down-side: You aren't practicing in the exact set-up as your live performances, the way you would normally be facing on stage, toward an audience. But believe me, it's the best way to manage both overall volume and the band mix. My band arrived at this solution after much trial and error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Scales Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Very useful thanks Sparky. just so I know - if I play guitar whilst also singing, will my mic have issues with my amp being directly behind me - if so just move amp til OK? (I assume) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparquelito Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Yes, you may have to angle it slightly. But again, it's low and right behind you, and not blowing upward in to the mics. Like so, sort of.... I created this image in a big hurry, but you get the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsongs Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 So you guys don't sing, right? rct It's truly unbelievable how many Musicians don't understand Dynamics or even have a friggin' Clue as to what they are & how to apply them.... They are content making Crap Sounding Noise!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayinLA Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Very useful thanks Sparky. just so I know - if I play guitar whilst also singing, will my mic have issues with my amp being directly behind me - if so just move amp til OK? (I assume) Amplification and microphonics have strange reactions that are beyond our visible range of things. Sometimes if you stagger something 14 inches one direction or another, suddenly any problem is solved. IDK...one of those things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfpup Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Any musician who doesn't understand dynamics is not in my bands. And if you have to explain to a musician that the vocal or other soloist is the focus.... see ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Yeah, this is something every wedding band should learn. Except for concerts and dance bars it would be nice if people could carry on a conversation. Several venues (the one's that are left, that will even have "live" bands), 'round here, require your volume level to be no louder than to allow their customers to have a conversation, without raising their voices. Any louder, and you're out, or at least, not asked back. GONE are the days, of everything on 12, customers and bar tenders be damned! I have "mixed" feelings about that "only so loud as to allow "normal" conversation. "Rock," by definition, has to be a certain volume, for the excitement, and "feeling" it generates. That doesn't mean, however, that it needs to be at "ear bleeding" levels. So, a good compromise, with judicious use of "dynamics" (to me) makes the best sense. But, the venue owners have their own ideas, and requirements, so we have the choice of respecting that, or not working. There is also, as has been mentioned, that inner band thing, that always seems to crop up, from time to time. I use the smallest (least wattage) amp I own, and 1/3 the wattage of the other members, and I will get complaints, from the drummer, of all people, about my "excessive" volume. HOWEVER, out front, everyone tells me it sounds "Great," and very well balanced. One thing I did, for this drummer, was to put a baffle in back of my (open back) amp, and that seemed to make her much happier. So, she needs to move further forward, when it's possible, or I'll have to unplug the Blues Jr.'s internal speaker, and use my closed back, HR Deluxe extension speaker, instead. By the way, I'm usually the one telling everyone to turn down, and to "Please use dynamics," so I found the drummer's complaint, ironic! LOL :D "C'est La Vie!" Oh, and...the "right mix," is as crucial in live gigs, as well as rehearsals. Maybe, more so! :) CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdgm Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Excellent posts in this thread, very good and useful info. I too am for the closed back cab now; tighter, clearer/cleaner bass, far less sound reflections behind you and into the drummer. We've practiced nearly every 2 wks for 4 yrs in a small, very reflective room and it gets very mushy. Dealing with that has helped make almost every live gig we play sound MUCH better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
american cheez Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Hmm, no such thing? 85 db can cause permanent hearing damage to the hair cells in the inner ear leading to permanent hearing loss. How loud is 85 db's? Well, a typical normal conversation is 60 db's not loud enough to cause damage. A bulldozer just idling is 85db's and is loud enough to cause permanent damage. A clap of thunder is 120 db's. Keep playing loud and it will hit you, and then you can enjoy that ringing in your ears that keeps you awake all night. i've had tinnitus since birth or early childhood. i was 12 before i realized not everyone could hear those crickets. no disrespect intended, but I'm glad I'm not playing in your band.... me too. you're probably a nice guy, and we would probably be way too effing loud for you. Well, a/c, as far as I can see you haven't posted your age in the relevant thread but my guess is it's 'Far Too Young to Know Better'. Unlike many who have replied here the chances are you still have time to make the correct choice - before it's too late. Up to you, of course... Pip. i'll be 53 in a few weeks. i may have been born with tinitus, because i cant remember not hearing that sound, ever. then at 17 i got my head kicked in by steel toe boots, and couldnt hear anything out of my right ear for years. shortly after that i played in a busy metal band, and we didn't have the awesome equipment folks do now adays, like monitors, and small amps that actually sound good. then a little while later, began what has been (so far) a 33 year career doing sheetmetal work. i'm lucky i can hear at all. my hearing was bad enough to keep me out of the army back in the late 80's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 ...i may have been born with tinitus, because i cant remember not hearing that sound, ever. then at 17 i got my head kicked in by steel toe boots, and couldnt hear anything out of my right ear for years. shortly after that i played in a busy metal band, and we didn't have the awesome equipment folks do now adays, like monitors, and small amps that actually sound good. then a little while later, began what has been (so far) a 33 year career doing sheetmetal work. i'm lucky i can hear at all. my hearing was bad enough to keep me out of the army back in the late 80's... In which case I'm sorry to read about your hearing problems, A/C. Unfortunately my hopes that you might be able to 'take appropriate measures' was totally misplaced. I sincerely wish you all the best with the reduced amount of hearing you still have left. Pip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 I should mention, that a LOT of musicians, here, are going the "unplugged" route! That is, more acoustic oriented music, with some electric's allowed, at equal volume, and where needed, for the song. The whole dynamic has shifted, these days, to more mellow, musical (i.e. melodies and harmonies, almost "Folk," to "Folk Rock," again.) Judicious use, of distortion, is the rule here, nowadays. I'm sure it's different, in different parts of the country, according to what the music genre preferences are. There are still the "Hard Rock," and "Metal" die hard players, but they increasingly have fewer and further between gig opportunities. Personally, I wish everyone well, and hope there will be some (more) compromising, for the best benefit fpr all! Whether or not that will happen, remains to be seen. Cheers, CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karloff Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 whether at practice or a gig, it's always a balancing act between playing at a volume where you can feel it & hear it as you desire it to be, and at the same time at a volume that is realistic & not juvenile. it's not 1974 anymore. you don't need a 100 watt Marshall or Ampeg 1/2 stack on 11 in a garage or 14 x 14 room. like Rct eluded to as he so eloquently does, playing as a band doesnt mean everyone flailing away on 11. theres no dynamics at 11. in the last 5 years I've learned the beauty of 15 to 20 watt amps. but at the same time, I don't want my whole mix coming out of a monitor. Orange doesn't make monitors. I want to hear my Orange or Traynor. not some crappy mix out of a 10" monitor speaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Practice in the round, with everyone in a loose semicircle, and facing roughly toward the drummer... Yes, that's what we've done in each incarnation of this band going back 20 years or so. We can cue easier as the songs are gotten down, drummer can hear, and we can get the singing cues right. I didn't much mention discipline. We are rehearsing so we can each do our part without having to hear each other. I hate whiny little b1tches on the gig. We rehearsed it so we could do it in our sleep, not so we would have to hear each and every caramel-y sweet upper mid-range of our Eric Johnsonesque violin tone. Do your part, "...just like we rehearsed it...", and you won't have to hear much at all but the vocals off the the room so you can harmonize right. Even then, the guitar tells me through my arms and shoulder where my note is. Sorry to hear of your hearing troubles American Cheez. I am a few years older than you and have been around too. It's why I rely on discipline more than anything. We pretty much know where to set the knobs when we get there so it sounds half decent out front. Up there where we are doesn't matter and in my experience is never all that great. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Any musician who doesn't understand dynamics is not in my bands. And if you have to explain to a musician that the vocal or other soloist is the focus.... see ya. oh sh1t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Scales Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 I took on board some of the tips you guys have offered up at our rehearsals today; - we played in more of a circle (not completely but more) I still stood at 'stage front' with lead player so bit of a live feel, but amps placed more circular and our own amps primarily behind each of us. - I got them to set so that vocals (and lead solo level) were highest, next drums, then everything else. - advised the guys that they needed to hear vocals most, then drums, then themselves and not worry too much whether they could hear the others. It was good - still room for improvement but better than usual and lower overall volume with virtually no tweaks and no volume wars. Much better for singing. Still pretty damn loud but we have a pretty loud drummer - it's a decent sized rehearsal space though and some use earplugs. For once I'm looking forward to hearing the recording. Thanks for your wisdom folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krock Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 I took on board some of the tips you guys have offered up at our rehearsals today; - we played in more of a circle (not completely but more) I still stood at 'stage front' with lead player so bit of a live feel, but amps placed more circular and our own amps primarily behind each of us. - I got them to set so that vocals (and lead solo level) were highest, next drums, then everything else. - advised the guys that they needed to hear vocals most, then drums, then themselves and not worry too much whether they could hear the others. It was good - still room for improvement but better than usual and lower overall volume with virtually no tweaks and no volume wars. Much better for singing. Still pretty damn loud but we have a pretty loud drummer - it's a decent sized rehearsal space though and some use earplugs. For once I'm looking forward to hearing the recording. Thanks for your wisdom folks. Thats all very positive and it seems that in time it should get better. Regarding your drummer, I bought mine a cajon and it taught him that its sometimes okay to play quietly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturn Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 We had a similar problem with a band I play in. I think there were a few causes and most of them have been addressed and corrected. For my part, there were 2 issues. First, there is a large pool (billiards) table in the middle of the room, and where I set up my amp just aims underneath the table. I would have to overcrank my amp to be heard by some of the other guys. Also, where I set up, the main speaker was about 2 feet behind my head. The keyboards and vocals were blasting into my ears all night. Another thing is our bass player is loud and has a big Ampeg stack. He is a monster bass player and has played with some of the biggest local musicians over the years, including members of Crack The Sky and PRS Band. I don't feel I have enough credibility to tell him how to play bass. Plus, I honestly just watch and marvel at his playing most of the night anyway. I found a high pub chair to set my amp on, so the sound is up over the pool table, and that helped. Plus we re-located the main speakers and they are positioned so we all can hear them better and it's not right in my ear. As far as the bass, I think that's just something we live with. He's so good, the trade off in volume is worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidblast Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 As far as the bass, I think that's just something we live with. He's so good, the trade off in volume is worth it. I think he'd be just as good if he turned down a bit, and the over all resulting mix of your sessions would sound much better. A/C.. don't get me wrong man I don't mind some volume, we run at a decent volume, but there's finite limit too IMHO.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merciful-evans Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 A/C.. don't get me wrong man I don't mind some volume, we run at a decent volume, but there's finite limit too IMHO.. absolutely! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twang Gang Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 I am lucky. I fought this volume battle for many years but my current band has solved it completely. Unfortunately what we do won't work for most of you. I have a drummer who plays electronic drums and is also a sound/mixing/recording engineer. He has many drum kits programmed and can go from a small jazz-band trap kit sound to a huge heavy metal drummer sound with a press of button. Overall drum volume is controlled with a knob. Bass player and myself on guitar do not use amplifiers at all. Bass has active pickups and he runs a little compression through the board. I have a signal processor with over 25 amp models and 20+ effects pedals so that goes through the PA as well. For both rehearsal and gigs we use in-ear monitors or headphones. We all hear the front of house mix through our in-ears or can individually tweak them a little if we want. Way less equipment to haul around, expert sound man doubles as the drummer and balances the mix, always an appropriate volume for the venue, and never a problem hearing each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retired Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 1515021513[/url]' post='1905937']In which case I'm sorry to read about your hearing problems, A/C. Unfortunately my hopes that you might be able to 'take appropriate measures' was totally misplaced. I sincerely wish you all the best with the reduced amount of hearing you still have left. Pip. Same here A.C. Apologies for your hearing loss and mine is very poor too. I had to give up target shooting which I love and no more loud concerts as told by the doctor. I used to drag race and can't go to drag stripes any more so I know how it sucks. I have 75% hearing loss in one ear, don't know what the other side is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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